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What causes maps to lag?

 
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Gamma
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: What causes maps to lag? Reply with quote Back to top

What causes new maps to lag in 4players on Goldeneye? How come Perfect Dark/TWINE can have maps that are so much bigger without lagging? Thanks.
 
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Gamma,

What maps are you trying? If you are using an emulator, are you sure you have edited the rom settings correctly?

Some of my maps (Kakariko Village and Rainforest) lag because there's too much on screen to make it work smoothly. I have tried several times with Kakariko to make it work better, and I'm still trying, but I don't think it will be 100% smooth some day.

Lately I discovered that props (doors, windows, pots and boxes) are the main reason Kakariko lags on emu. It's really weird since I thought that props only load when they were on screen, and even if they are loaded the doors and windows prevent the interior of the houses (pretty high poly indeed) to render. Or at least that was the meaning for them. I noticed no difference on console, though.

I ripped a 4P Kakariko multi from my last release and oddly the inside of houses are rendered, so I'll have to check doors and windows flags.

My guess is that even if your settings are fine, the multis you are trying might be pussing the N64 too much. It's not a matter of how big the maps are, but what can you see on screen at once. And the more players to the mix, the worse it gets since you render the same things multiple times.

You should try my other maps: Peach's Castle and Forest Temple. Those are big and run smoothly, even on console.

UPDATE:
Doors and windows sure block the portals in Kakariko on console. Must be some missemulation.
 
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SATURN_81
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 PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

El mapa mas grande de TWINE que es el nivel Forest parece funcionar a la perfeccion en el modo multijugador, esto es sorpendente. otros niveles para multijugador son modificaciones o adaptaciones de los niveles de un jugador en donde se cortan caminos de acceso al resto del nivel. los demas niveles multijugador no utilizan puertas ni ventanas ( esto es algo que nunca me ha gustado en TWINE,PD,GE)

@Sogun:
siempre he pensado que los niveles sin techo, con cielos, o los demasiado abiertos, o con grandes habitaciones sufren retraso en la velocidad. creo que Forest Temple, aunque sea un gran nivel , si que es cierto que esta compuesto de pequeñas habitaciones, lo cual consigue la velocidad y fluidez adecuada.

Respecto al mapa Kakariko, no se si es una buena idea empezar de nuevo a hacer el mapa desde cero, para averiguar cualquier cosa que disminuya la velocidad. creo que en los mapas que hiciste despues de este , sin darte cuenta fuiste perfeccionando tu metodo para hacer mapas mas fluidos, y tal vez en su dia cuando empezaste con Kakariko no tenias todo el conocimiento ni los metodos que luego usarias en los futuros niveles.

ENGLISH:

The largest map is the level TWINE Forest seems to work to perfection in multiplayer , this is sorpendente . other multiplayer levels are modifications or adjustments to the player levels where roads intersect the rest of the level. others do not use multiplayer levels windows or doors ( this is something I never liked in TWINE , PD , GE )

@ Sogun :
I always thought that homelessness levels , skies , or too wide , or large rooms suffer delay in the rate . I think Forest Temple , even a high level, if that is true that is composed of small rooms which get adequate speed and fluidity .

Regarding the map Kakariko , not if it's a good idea to start back to make a map from scratch , to find anything that decreases the speed . I think you did the maps after this , without realizing you were perfecting your method to make maps more fluids , and perhaps in your day when you did not have Kakariko started with all the knowledge and methods then you would use in future levels .
 
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Sogun
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 PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hola SATURN_81

No es que haya mejorado mi método de hacer niveles, sino que el Castillo de Peach y el Templo del Bosque se adaptan mejor para ser niveles multijugador.
La principal causa de las ralentizaciones es el número de polígonos en pantalla y cuanto más grandes sean las salas más polígonos tienen (en teoría) y más posibilidades hay de que se encuentren mas pesonajes a la vez en ese sitio, aumentando todavía más el número de polígonos. Y el problema aumenta cuantos más jugadores hay porque hay que renderizar el escenario y los personajes dos, tres y hasta cuatro veces.
A lo largo del tiempo he comprendido mejor cómo funciona el motor gráfico del GE, y también hay nuevas herramientas del Editor que te permiten ahorrar polígonos o hacer que las cosas se vean mejor.

Existen algunos métodos para intentar aliviar la carga poligonal en multijugador:
-Añadir niebla para que no se carguen varias salas a la vez; si tienes una sala muy grande (como Kakariko) la divides en muchos trozos pequeños de forma que los más lejanos queden ocultos por la niebla y así no se carguen (lo mismo con los objetos y personajes lejanos). No todos los niveles multijugador pueden modificar la niebla según el número de jugadores (sólo Temple, Complex y Caverns), en algunos modificas la nieblas para cualquier número de jugadores y en otros ni siquiera la puedes cambiar (como en Caves).
-Hacer que los objetos no aparezcan según aumenta el número de jugadores (esto es lo que hice en el mapa Rainforest para que apareciesen menos palmeras). Puedes indicar a cada objeto individualmente que no aparezca cuando hay 3 ó 4 jugadores. En la mayoría de mapas no puedes hacer esto porque normalmente no hay objetos de ningún tipo salvo puertas, que es mejor dejarlas porque te impiden que cargue lo que hay más atrás de ellas.

Cuando publiqué el Templo del Bosque también "rehice" Kakariko y lo incluí en el parche. Con la ayuda de Subdrag dividí toda la zona exterior en más de 20 trozos para que sólo se cargasen los trozos que estuviesen visibles y no toda la zona exterior que era lo que ocurría antes. Tuve que aumentar la niebla porque detectamos que algunos trozos más alejados tenían problemas con los portales (los portales te permiten ver de un trozo a otro) y a veces desaparecía parte de esos trozos. Aumentando la niebla oculté eso y además mejoró la velocidad en general, pues se cargaban menos trozos cada vez.
Lo que todavía no he hecho es eliminar algunos objetos para 3 y 4 jugadores. Especialmente los jarrones que tienen bastantes polígonos. No sé cómo afectará a la velocidad porque hay mucha niebla a 4 jugadores y no se cargan muchos elementos en pantalla, pero sería interesante probarlo.


ENGLISH

Peach's Castle and Forest Temple are more suitable for multi levels than Kakariko. The main reason for slowdowns is polygon account on screen. The bigger the rooms are, the more likely you need more polygons to model them and more chances for many characters to meet there (and raise poly count even more). The issue increases as more players join, since the game has to render background and characters 2, 3 or 4 times.
Since I've been working on GE/PD levels I've been learning more about how the graphic engine works, and new features have been added to Editor that makes it easier to save polygons or do fancy things that make the levels look more appealing.

In order to make things faster for multi you can:
-Add fog so not many rooms are loaded at once. If you have a very big room, you split it in many smaller rooms so the further ones are hidden by the fog and don't load (same with further props and characters). Although you can only edit the fog separately for 2P, 3P and 4P in the Temple, Complex and Caverns slots. In some others you can edit the fog for all modes but in others you can't edit it at all! (Caves and others).
-Make it so some props don't show regarding the number of players (I did this in my Rainforest map). In editor you can set every individual prop to show or not in 2P, 3P and 4P. Most of the maps don't benefit of this because there are no props to begin with, hehe. I wouldn't do this to doors since they prevent the room behind them to load.

When I released the Forest Temple I also bundled a Kakariko "remake". With the help of Subdrag we splited the outside area in more than 20 rooms. I had to increase fog because there were some portal issues in the further rooms. By decreasing draw distance performance was faster too.
What I haven't tried yet is removing some props for 3 and 4 players. Especially the pots. I still don't know how that will help since you can't see very far in 4P, but it's worth trying it.
 
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EternallyAries
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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I've created quite a few maps. Even some maps that just pushes the game it self over the limit.

http://www.goldeneyevault.com/viewfile.php?id=189 This map it self proves how much objects Goldeneye can handle.

Now the the frame skipping or FPS drops, might have to do with the Emulator it self.

As the level I linked. I've tested it on 3 different Emulators.

One was Mupen, the other was Project 64. and last was 1964.

Mupen had is frame rate drop up and down constantly. But it was still playable. If only 2 players.

Project 64 on the other hand. Can run this much smoother then Mupen. But keep in mind, Project 64 has more options you can tweak. Making the level a bit more playable in 2 players.

As for 1964. The emulator can run the level 100% smoothly. (At least on my end)

I had to edit the frame counter, but with it on the right one. (Depending on how powerful your computer is) It will run smooth on 2 players. 3 players can also run on it. But the lag does increase as each player moves. But as for 4 players. The map it self is pretty much unplayable. By all means.

And I know this might not answer your question. But its some information about how much this game can really handle. Even on a Muitiplayer scale.
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SATURN_81
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

hola Sogun:

me parece que ahora entiendo estas cosas un poco mejor aunque me quedan dudas como:

¿ un area grande de un nivel puede tener muchos poligonos? ¿o es posible que tambien pueda construirse un area con pocos poligonos para seguir siendo un area grande ?. Creo que el nivel Streets es uno de esos niveles grandes con pocos poligonos, y la misma vez con grandes dimensiones.

tu nivel "castillo de peach" parece que tiene pocos poligonos en el area exterior comparado con cualquier otro nivel, y creo que por esta razon este nivel va fluido.

Jungle de GE parece que se ven afectados por la gran cantidad de palmeras y hojas que tienen que cargarse en juego. Al nivel Depot le ocurre lo mismo con los garajes o naves, lo cual afectara negativamente a la velocidad en juego. (creo que esta fue una de las razones para no incluir estos niveles en multi).

a mi me surje la duda de si es posible tener en primer lugar para GE el nivel Forest de TWINE (extraido en modo solitario)y ponerlo a funcionar tanto en misiones para un solo jugador como multi, y para PD solo en multi. he pensado en la dificultad que existe para el proyecto GEX , para que el nivel Dam con sus dimensiones tan grandes pueda ser posible, y es por esta razon por la que me surje esta duda. es posible incluso que el nivel Forest, sea mas grande que Dam. es posible que Forest de TWINE consuma menos poligonos debido a que los pinos y arboles estan hechos en 2D y aunque los caminos se llegan a cruzar son lineales, con lo cual no creo que carguen muchos poligonos. el unico area que pienso que puede tener muchos poligonos, puede ser la de la pista de aterrizaje, que es inmensa, tiene torres con francotiradores, la torre de control y dos garajes o naves.

ENGLISH:
hello Shogun :

I think I now understand these things a little better but I have no doubt as:

Large an area ? Level can have many polygons ? Or you may also can build an area with few polygons to remain a large area ? . I think the level Streets is one of those large levels with few polygons , and the same time with large dimensions.

your level " peach castle " seems to have few polygons in the outer area compared to any other level , and I think for this reason this level is fluid.

GE Jungle seems to be affected by lots of palm trees and leaves that have to be loaded into play . Depot level the same thing happens with garages or warehouses, which negatively affect game speed . (I think this was one of the reasons for not including these multi levels ) .

surje to me the question of whether it is possible to first GE TWINE Forest level ( extracted in solo mode ) and put it to work in both single player missions and multi, and PD only in multi . I thought about the difficulty of the project GEX , for the Dam level with dimensions as large may be possible , and it is for this reason that I surje this question. is even possible that the Forest level , is larger than Dam Forest may use less polygons TWINE because pine trees are made ​​in 2D and although come to cross paths are linear , which I do not think to upload many polygons . the only area that I think can have many polygons , may be that of the runway , which is immense , have towers with snipers, the control tower and two warehouses garages .
 
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:31 pm    Post subject: The game design and memory Reply with quote Back to top

The game lags because it's NOT REAL. You cannot make a game that has NO lag. Technically every game does you just can't see it. Visual artifacts have to stop somewhere as well. GTA5 is the most impressive game I've seen so far however on THINGS SEEN with little lag. 64 bit is not that big of an engine and regardless of emulator or pc the game ITSELF was only made to run so fast or without lag. The blackouts are simply coding errors dues to loading levels OUTSIDE of the games design. Check VAULT for the best possible settings in GoldenEye and Perfect Dark (scroll to the bottom of the page in this link): http://www.goldeneyevault.com/faq.php

Chow! Hope this helps!!
 
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Sogun
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 PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SATURN_81

Un área grande (incluso muy grande) puede hacerse con pocos polígonos. Depende del nivel de detalle que quieras que tenga. Puedes hacer un suelo plano con dos polígonos (dos triángulos formando un rectángulo) para una pequeña habitación, o hacer los triángulos tan grandes como alcance la vista para hacer una llanura o un mar. Si quieres darle relieve a este suelo vas a tener que emplear más polígonos.

Puedes ver ejemplos de esto en el propio GE. Surface es un nivel muy grande pero sus montañas de nieve están hechas con muy pocos polígonos. Se usan más polígonos en las cabañas o los árboles del perímetro que en todo lo demás. Frigate es un mapa con estancias pequeñas, pero hay tantos detalles hechos con polígonos (tubos de ventilación, marcos redondos de las puertas, cableado...) que tiene el doble que Surface (8100 frente a 16677, sin contar objetos como máquinas ni enemigos). Silo, que parece un mapa muy sencillo es el que más polígonos utiliza (25933) principalmente por las salas circulares y su gran número de escaleras. Streets es posible que sea el que más polígonos use en realidad, aunque no he podido contarlo con exactitud porque más allá del arco del principio el nivel usa objetos para formar las calles (el principio y el callejón donde está Valentin son ya 6698 polígonos).

Yo he sacado estas cuentas exportando los niveles desde el editor y cargándolos en un programa que cuenta los polígonos, pero puedes ver cómo están hechos los niveles si abres uno cualquier en el Editor y donde pone 'Hi Res Textures' haces click varias veces hasta que ponga 'Solid/Wireframe'.

No sé que mapa es Forest de TWINE, pero supongo que sí que podría funcionar en GE si se adapta un poco.
Dam es el nivel más grande tanto de GE como en PD, de hecho es tan grande que seguramente no se podrá trasladar a GE: X tal cual. Los niveles de GE y PD, y no sé si es un límite en todos los juegos de Nintendo 64, tienen un límite de unas 64.000 unidades a lo largo y ancho (de -32.768 a +32.768 o algo así). En GE puedes hacer niveles más grandes si modificas el nivel de escala, pero entonces pierdes precisión en el mapa. A escala 1.0 la precisión es de un centímetro, es decir, que no puedes hacer nada más pequeño de un centímetro; y a escala 0.5 la precisión es de dos centímetros, pero el mapa puede ser dos veces más grande.
PD no tiene parámetro de escala (funciona siempre en 1.0) o al menos no lo hemos descubierto todavía.
Dam es más grande de lo que parece, sobre todo por su parte final que es ¡gigantesca!


ENGLISH

A big area (even a very big one) can be done with a few polygons. It depends on how much detail you want. You can model a floor with too polygons (two triangles making a rectangle) for a small room, or enlarge those tris until you can't see the edges to do a sea. If you want to make mountains you'll have to add more polygons.

You can see some examples in GE. Surface is a very big level, but its snowy mountains are made with few polygons. More tris are used in huts and the wall-trees on the perimeter. Frigate is a level qith small rooms, but it has so many details modeled (vents, round frames, cables...) that it doubles the amount of tris in Surface (16,677 vs 8,100, without props and guards). Silo, which seems a very simple level, has 25,933 polygons (mainly because of the rounds rooms and the amount of stairs). Streets is probably even higher but I wasn't able to count the tris because most of the level is made with props (however, just the beginning and the alley is made by 6,698 tris).

I know these counts because I exported the levels from editor and used another tool to count the tris, but you can see how the levels are modeled in editor. Open any level and click on 'Hi Res Textures' until it changes to 'Solid/Wireframe' to see the tris that make the levels.

I haven't played TWINE's Forest, but I guess it can work in GE with some adjustments.
Dam is the bigger level in both GE and PD. It's so big it will probably not be ported as is to GE: X.
GE and PD levels (and maybe all N64 games) have a limit of about 64,000 units long and wide (from -32,768 to +32,768 or something like that). In GE you can make bigger levels thanks to the scale value, but you'll lose precision doing that. At 1.0 scale, precision equals to 1 cm (you can't model things smaller than 1 cm); and at 0.5 scale precision is 2cm, but levels can be twice as big.
PD doesn't use a scale value as GE, or we haven't found it yet, so it works always at 1.0 scale.
Dam is bigger than it seems, the final area is gigantic!
 
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Just a little note on Scale in Perfect Dark. In the Level Setup Table, there is an entry for Scale. However, only one (unused) stage actually has anything other than 1.0 set on it. That's 36 Len, which was Cuba in GoldenEye. However, this Scale value only seems to affect levels when in a camera mode. Cinematics will appear to take place in slightly different locations when adjusting it. But once you take control of Joanna, everything resumes at the normal size. That is, if you haven't fallen out of the level. The game uses your character position from the cinema, so there's a chance you'll start outside the map, or somewhere other than where you're supposed to.
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I haven't played TWINE's Forest, but I guess it can work in GE with some adjustments.
Quote:
Sogun.....Dam is the bigger level in both GE and PD. It's so big it will probably not be ported as is to GE: X.
GE and PD levels (and maybe all N64 games) have a limit of about 64,000 units long and wide (from -32,768 to +32,768 or something like that). In GE you can make bigger levels thanks to the scale value, but you'll lose precision doing that. At 1.0 scale, precision equals to 1 cm (you can't model things smaller than 1 cm); and at 0.5 scale precision is 2cm, but levels can be twice as big.
PD doesn't use a scale value as GE, or we haven't found it yet, so it works always at 1.0 scale.
Dam is bigger than it seems, the final area is gigantic!


SOGUN: You are the man along with Wreck on this stuff. I would LOVE to see a polygoned DOWN version of TWINE levels in multi if you ever get inspired to do that. That would be really NEAT. Cool Very Happy
 
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