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Cougar Magnum vs DY357 Magnum

 
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Johnny Thunder
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 PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:04 pm    Post subject: Cougar Magnum vs DY357 Magnum Reply with quote Back to top

Think, which is the most powerful revolver of these games, the Cougar Magnum of GoldenEye, or the DY357 Magnum of Perfect Dark, you all think
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Couger:
Destruction amount = 2
Object shoot through = 10

DY357:
Damage = 2
Penetration = 05000000 ?? really?

So, in both games the "magnum" is the same.

Real life is a little more complex, but assuming the name of the PD gun refers to .357 magnum then we can compare the .357 and the .44 magnums ballistics

.357:
Weight: 125 gr (8g)
Velocity: 1,450 fps (440 m/s)
Energy: 583 ft/lbf (790 J)

.44:
Weight: 240 gr (16g)
Velocity: 1,180 fps (360 m/s)
Energy: 742 ft/lbf (1,005 J)

As you can see above, the .44 has a lot more stopping power.

Trev
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Last edited by Trevor on Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total
 
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Kerr Avon
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Trevor wrote:
Couger:
Destruction amount = 2
Object shoot through = 10

DY357:
Damage = 2
Penetration = 05000000 ?? really?

So, in both games the "magnum" is the same.

Real life is a little more complex, but assuming the name of the PD gun refers to .357 magnum then we can compare the .357 and the .44 magnums ballistics

.357:
Weight: 125 gr (8g)
Velocity: 1,450 fps (440 m/s)
Energy: 583 ft/lb (790 J)

.44:
Weight: 240 gr (16g)
Velocity: 1,180 fps (360 m/s)
Energy: 742 ft/lb (1,005 J)

As you can see above, the .44 has a lot more stopping power.

Trev


I don't know anything about guns (never even held one, and I hope I never will) but since you seem well up on them, can you answer some questions I have about them, please?

What does "stopping power" mean? In your instance it seems to mean actual force of the shot, so I assume the "stopping" means the force transferred when the bullet hits an immovable (though perhaps breakable) object/surface. Fair enough, but I'd have thought that "striking force" or "hit force" would be more apt.

And I've heard that some guns offer more penetration than stopping power, which I'd have thought was a function of the bullet (the part of the bullet that is actually shot out, travels, and hits the target) rather than of the gun itself.

And what is the difference between a clip and a magazine? And an automatic, a semi-automatic, and a manual? I'd assume manual means you need to manually pull back the hammer or something, semi-automatic means you have to repeatedly press the trigger to fire multiple bullets, and automatic means you can hold down the trigger to fire multiple bullets.

Can guns fire underwater? In video games most can't, and that does seem to make sense, as the explosion to drive the bullet would need oxygen, but I'd imagine that a gun could be designed to fire underwater (or in any oxygen-free environment) if the gun supplied the oxygen.

And from what I've read, the reality of guns is rather different from in films and video games, as they're much louder than usually portrayed and the cordite can cause a headache and nausea in a confined space if there's a lot of firing going on. And apparently real-life silencers aren't remotely as effective as in fiction.

And because of the way guns work (a small explosive in the barrel, and the only physical escape for the expanding gas is to drive the bullet out through the pipe (or whatever it's called)) does the barrel of the gun ever get too hot to touch? And if so, then logically does it ever expand inward enough to block the bullet?
 
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The Cougar Magnum has a way higher rate of fire, so I prefer that one. The DY357 is a slow pain in the butt.
 
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 PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I know the answers to a few of these; hopefully others can fill in.

Quote:
Manual, automatic, semi-automatic

You're right about manual and automatic.
Semi-automatics are designed so they load the next round after the first has fired, often (always?) using the force from the previously fired round. Unlike automatics they do not fire sequential rounds. Most automatics have semi-automatic modes as well (single-fire). Here in the US some states regulate if you can own an automatic, and will insist they be modified to be exclusively semi-automatic.

Quote:
Can guns be fired underwater

Some can!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=502KryEguA0
The Soviet SPP-1 and HKP11 were designed to do this; the glock in the video was modified slightly. The actual issue has to do with water pressure. Firing the round is like detonating a depth charge inside the barrel; if that pressure can't escape past a pillar of water it will have to pass through the internals of the gun itself, potentially damaging or destroying it.

Incidentally, if you're curious about firing from air into water, you're more likely to be successful with smaller and/or slower-velocity rounds, such as .22 handguns or shotguns. The faster and hotter the round is, the more likely it will explode on the surface of the water. So if you're a British spy and half the Russian army is shooting at you with automatic weapons, you really are 1000 times safer in the water.

Quote:
Penetration?

There's a number of factors that influence penetration. The type of round is very important, but so is the length of the muzzle, design of the chamber, and overall caliber. How a round flies through the air can impact its penetration as well.
Regardless how hard the casing or amount of powder, you're ultimately limited by the firearm. You're never going to penetrate the armor of a tank with a handgun.

Quote:
Silencers!

Yeah, they aren't silent. It sounds more like a whip crack, and it's not like people won't hear it. The main point is that it doesn't carry over long distances very well, and that it doesn't immediately sound like somebody just opened fire.

Quote:
Does the barrel get hot?

Yes! Barrels get hot. Friction is real and those gasses are hot.
This isn't as big a problem in the modern era, but a few wars back and they were carrying spare barrels for heavier automatic weapons. Barrels would harden and get brittle, requiring replacement.
Metal doesn't expand infinitely though and it does so at predictable rates. That's factored into their design, and even if they somehow did expand far enough to impede whatever you're firing it's vastly more likely the warmer, softer metal would form to fit the opening. Think of it like a really dangerous gimlet.

Quote:
Stopping power...

Probably want to ask somebody else.
Game animals though are rated on the minimum force necessary to take them down; in general larger game needs more stopping power. It would roughly correspond to your ability to stop said thing from eating/gratuitously murdering you. In this case, the .44 would probably be able to stop, say, a bear with (hopefully) a single shot. Using less would be less dangerous to the bear and, consequentially, more dangerous to you.
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Kerr Avon wrote:

What does "stopping power" mean? In your instance it seems to mean actual force of the shot, so I assume the "stopping" means the force transferred when the bullet hits an immovable (though perhaps breakable) object/surface. Fair enough, but I'd have thought that "striking force" or "hit force" would be more apt.

Stopping power is more of a phrase rather than technical term. Its probably very apt to use Zoinks definition of a projectiles ability to kill something.
The technical term is used in the stats is Foot Pounds of force / Joules of force.
That is, the energy required to lift x pounds 1 ft under gravity.
For the metric Joule and example would be The energy required to lift a medium-size tomato (100 g) 1 m vertically from the surface of the Earth.


Kerr Avon wrote:

And I've heard that some guns offer more penetration than stopping power, which I'd have thought was a function of the bullet (the part of the bullet that is actually shot out, travels, and hits the target) rather than of the gun itself.

Penetration refers to part of the act of sex ... oh wait, wrong conversation Razz
Zoink kind of digresses on penetration. While he and yourself are right that penetration depends on the bullet, the definition is simply how far does a bullet travel through ballistic gel.
Hollow-points for example will travel less (therefore imparting more energy to the beginning of impact) because they expand and find it difficult to progress.
Titanium conical points will travel further because they don't deform and they cut through the gel. They can also "penetrate" armour.

Obviously the faster the bullet also means longer penetration.

Also, Bullet is the projectile, Round is the whole thing (Bullet + Cartrige/Case)

The part the gun plays, as described by zoink, is all in the barrel length. A short barrel will not give enough time to accelerate the bullet while a long barrel will start to slow the bullet after the gasses stop expanding.

Also, a manual gun will perform slightly better than an auto since no gasses are being siphoned off to propel the bolt back.

Kerr Avon wrote:

And what is the difference between a clip and a magazine? And an automatic, a semi-automatic, and a manual? I'd assume manual means you need to manually pull back the hammer or something, semi-automatic means you have to repeatedly press the trigger to fire multiple bullets, and automatic means you can hold down the trigger to fire multiple bullets.

Zoink is right about semi-auto and auto.
One addition is that Auto's are usually gas operated meaning they siphon off some gas down the barrel to push a rod back against the bolt which in turn pushes the bolt back, cocking the firing pin, ejecting the empty case and loading a new round ready for the firing pin to be released again - semi requiring the trigger to be pulled again.

Clip = A metal band holding 5 or 8 or 10 rounds together. usually removed before inserting into a magazine (except the M1 garand, hence the characteristic ping on last shot)
Magazine = A storage container on the gun (modern guns (m16, AK47 etc) are removable) holding the rounds waiting to be directly fed into the breach.

I should also add, as zoink did for the US, the for us in the UK, we are not allowed Autos at all and if I'm not mistaken we are not allowed even Semi except on a Shotgun Certificate with a maximum capacity of 2 in the magazine. (a third can be loaded into the breach giving 3 shots total)

Kerr Avon wrote:

Can guns fire underwater? In video games most can't, and that does seem to make sense, as the explosion to drive the bullet would need oxygen, but I'd imagine that a gun could be designed to fire underwater (or in any oxygen-free environment) if the gun supplied the oxygen.

Again, Zoink is right, yes modern guns can since the bullet stops water wetting the Nitro-Cellulose - but ultimately you can potentially destroy the gun and your hand.

As for the oxygen requirement, explosive powders provide their own.
Black Powder is:
Carbon + Potassium Nitrate + Sulphur
When heated, Potassium Nitrate breaks down into its constituent parts and bonds with Carbon and Sulphur to make Potassium sulfide and Carbon Dioxide + energy
2 KNO3 + S + 3 C → K2S + N2 + 3 CO2.

Similar reactions take place for Nitro-Cellulose


Kerr Avon wrote:

And from what I've read, the reality of guns is rather different from in films and video games, as they're much louder than usually portrayed and the cordite can cause a headache and nausea in a confined space if there's a lot of firing going on. And apparently real-life silencers aren't remotely as effective as in fiction.

lets expand on Zoinks definition.

A Silencer is a tube of chambers.
This allows the gasses from inside the barrel and exiting the muzzle to expand slower than hitting the cold open air directly.

This reduces Gas Expansion noise to "almost none".

This is great for Sub-Sonic projectiles - you get a muffled pop and that's it.

However, Super-sonic projectiles... your wasting your time there.

Super-sonic projectiles "clap" as a pressure wave builds up in front of them.

The best silencer in the world cannot stop this clap.

Kerr Avon wrote:

And because of the way guns work (a small explosive in the barrel, and the only physical escape for the expanding gas is to drive the bullet out through the pipe (or whatever it's called)) does the barrel of the gun ever get too hot to touch? And if so, then logically does it ever expand inward enough to block the bullet?


Zoinks right, also you have to know that bullets are spun by "rifling" - that is the spiral you see on the bond intro.

As the bullet is pushed down the barrel, it is cut by the spiral forcing it to spin.

The barrel does expand but outwardly and only by a fraction which allows the bullet to still be cut.


Trev
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 PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks both of you, that's very informative and interesting.
 
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 PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

zoinkity wrote:
Here in the US some states regulate if you can own an automatic, and will insist they be modified to be exclusively semi-automatic.


Fully automatic guns have been illegal in the US since 1986 (the Hughes Amendment), though existing owners were grandfathered in.
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