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My thoughts (in video form)

 
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Ryani
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Joined: 23 Nov 2006
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: My thoughts (in video form) Reply with quote Back to top

Cartel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYF2GfVF8h8
Bodega: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVdjk1HVlis
Miami: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhl5jFsviRU

I was pretty hyped to play the mod -- since I think I've been here since it was originally announced and man does that make me feel old -- and actually playing it, I have a great many thoughts...not all of them positive.

Now, I don't want to be the type of person who criticises something to the point where they seem personally offended by it or demands others not enjoy themselves, and I fully acknowledge the work put in by you guys especially after a lot of you came into a project essentially trapped in dev hell, which is always a difficult thing to deal with. Hell, the fact this was finished at all is impressive.

However, I feel like I have some very valid points to share and if the devs are open to constructive criticism (with the odd compliment, naturally) I'm uploading my footage to Youtube here.

I don't intend to isolate and accuse any single creator of anything, just to give feedback on the project's first release from someone with a bit of design experience and obviously more than a decade of Goldeneye behind him.


Last edited by Ryani on Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:44 am; edited 2 times in total
 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

As a "guy who made a level" I actually feel my biggest mistake was taking the idea I was given and really running with it because frequently the short, simple, and intense levels are the most fun (thinking: Dam) but instead I stuffed as much as I could into it and tried to polish every single corner which just blew out the time I was working on it and it also became another sprawling level which was frequently disorienting.
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Sogun
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Ryani

I'm the guy that made the level (plus Bodega and Alps prototype).

Your feedback is appreciated. We know it isn't a perfect game and some things can be polished for a future final release.
The team was basically a group of people scattered around the world with no experience in game developing and zero skills in some regards. You would be surprised to know that some members didn't even know how to 3D model at all before working on GF64, yet they made all those amazing models and backgrounds. However, we overcame that with a hunger for knowledge and lots of passion. As the project progressed, the GE Setup Editor improved a lot and new possibilities to create content were available. Things like the use of the Expansion Pak or the amazing lighting engine build in the editor really changed the way the project was envisioned.
Then there's life, as we aren't professional videogame creators we couldn't keep the pace because we had other things to care. I joined the team in late 2011 and was very active until early 2014, then I hardly made any progress at all. I think in 2017 I didn't even worked in GF64. I regret all those years with almost no progress from my part; the final release deserved a more polished version of Alps.


As for your video, I'll try to be especific Wink

-Ocean is green because graphic plugins can't emulate it correctly. It actually is a very dark blue, almost black, heh. The water height has been corrected in my "after release for final version" that I'm working on. There was a value in Editor just for that, but it was mislabeled until recently.

-Walls in the silo area are "ugly". I really can't do much about it without increasing the polycount, and that area already suffers from several slowdowns in real hardware. It's already a 64x64 texture so you can't have a more detailed one. What I would need to do is finding a better design for it. Although I think it matches movie quite well.

-Those aren't mean to be heroine plants. They are just plants that appeared in the movie, so I added some props that were already done. They should be cactus, heh, but we don't have room for new props although I think there are some unused ones. Not sure if it's worth changing it.

-Nice textures in the bathrooms and hut at the beginning -> Thanks.

-"The drawing distance isn't long enough". Actually it is, but there's too much near fog. There's a value in Editor to easily fix that and I checked after release and it's surprisingly low. Right now it's at 5, when Rare usually used 10 and I found out that 15 makes levels look much nicer. This 'Blend mult' value affects the way fog scatters, not the amount or the drawing distance. So if it's low, you'll have near fog, and if it's high you'll have something like Rogue Squadron, heh. However, if it's too high you'll have some Z fighting (polygons don't render in the correct order) and maybe that's why I reduced it to 5, because I remember there was some Z fighting (on real hardware) in doors and guards hats (it's still there but I guess it was worse before). I'll take a look, changing that shouldn't affect performance.

-The inside silos looks exactly like the movie -> Thank you again. We tried to recreate the movie sets as close as possible. The 6 silos have a different prop distributionm but there's one that tries to mimic the movie in an insane way. There's an intro camera in the same spot that the movie.

-The heroine plants inside silos look a bit meh -> It's N64, we can't go overboard with polycount (heh, we did in lots of places), especially if there's going to be lots of props showing at the same time.
-The guard towers are too far away -> There has been a lot of complains about the silo area being to large and void. I tried to match movie scale. Trying to reduce it isn't easy and might impact other areas of the level. However, those guards can't actually see you thanks to how Goldeneye was designed, heh.

-About the timed bombs and objective A. It's like in the original GE Silo mission were you have to select the explosive from the inventory every time. You don't need to place it in the red barrels, just placing it inside the silo works. However plating explosives in all 6 silos isn't very funny, especially if you replay the mission a lot. This will probably be changed.

-The gate key has it's own meaning but I haven't seen any playthrough discovering it. It's really a shame because it was something I already had in mind before start modeling the level and put quite work on it. Drawing distance is also related to the surprise, heh. One of the beta testers found it and like it a lot.

-All the warehouses are inaccesible. There was really no meaning to go inside. There are some other fake doors in the level, especially in the city. I don't think anyone really tried to open all of them, haha. And no, the contact agent isn't inside one of the city houses.

-Small rooms in the offices -> The offices were designed as an 00Agent exclusive area and also a multiplayer arena (it has the same size as Archives multi). I tried to make it a realistic building too. Most of them are empty because all the guards that were supposed to be there went outside the building alerted by your gunshot, hehe. We tried to fix that but we couldn't. And it's a real problem, because they open the door and the players can get trapped in the offices in Agent and Secret Agent (I fixed that for final release, but guards can still go outside).

-Bathroom feels Spanish -> LOL. I'm from Spain actually. Mission takes place in Mexico.

-There's no one in the main office because the boss doesn't stay there at night and people isn't allowed to go inside Razz. If you look at the table, next to the buyers list there are two glasses and a bottle of wine. Maybe the boss sealed a deal and now is celebrating somewhere else, hehe.

-Guard respawn in the city is too fast and agressive. This should be fixed. Also, civilians just stand there doing nothing, I'd like to make things more alive.

-Hideous cars -> I think they were two of the first props modeled at the beggining of the project. Maybe we can improve them without going to crazy with polys. Although cars from that era were ugly like that, heh.

-The undercover agent knows how to hide. You don't have to go too far in the city to find him, though. The city isn't that complex actually, it's like a circle with a main street crossing it an three death ends. Try to follow a straigh path until you reach the main street and you'll understand the layout easily.

-Guns are Trevor's amazing work.


Really looking forward to your next video and discuss about Bodega.
 
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Ryani
Secret Agent
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Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 204

 PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm glad I was able to help. And again, the mod as a whole impresses me in many ways - if it didn't, I would've just played it once and moved on. I feel like the potential is definitely there, so I'm glad you're open to criticism. The next video is here now, and I was a much bigger fan of this one.

Sogun wrote:

Ocean is green because graphic plugins can't emulate it correctly. It actually is a very dark blue, almost black, heh. The water height has been corrected in my "after release for final version" that I'm working on. There was a value in Editor just for that, but it was mislabeled until recently.


Ah, if it's emulator I guess it's something I'll have to deal with. Adjusting the level is definitely good enough there.

Sogun wrote:

Walls in the silo area are "ugly". I really can't do much about it without increasing the polycount, and that area already suffers from several slowdowns in real hardware. It's already a 64x64 texture so you can't have a more detailed one. What I would need to do is finding a better design for it. Although I think it matches movie quite well.


It's not so much the texture, I think, as the general shape. Some barbed wire would definitely make it look better, though perhaps making the compound generally smaller would make it easier to do more with the walls. The blocky look isn't as appealing (though again barbed wire makes it way better).

EDIT: It occurred to me while replaying that more crates, some trucks, enemies hiding behind barrels and such, and also maybe more trenches and raised hills would make that empty space in the compound much less pronounced. Also, to stop walls being so boring - propaganda posters! Flyers, art, etc. They would look great. More colour!

Sogun wrote:

Those aren't mean to be heroine plants. They are just plants that appeared in the movie, so I added some props that were already done. They should be cactus, heh, but we don't have room for new props although I think there are some unused ones. Not sure if it's worth changing it.


The texture stretch is the only thing I really have an issue with. Personally I think it's ugly looking. The plant itself is perfectly fine, though having just a few in one spot is a bit odd. If it were me I'd add a few in the corners, but I suppose the object count in the levels is high enough as it is?

Sogun wrote:

The guard towers are too far away -> There has been a lot of complains about the silo area being to large and void. I tried to match movie scale. Trying to reduce it isn't easy and might impact other areas of the level. However, those guards can't actually see you thanks to how Goldeneye was designed, heh.


I think this is a case where the movie duplication/game flow ratio should lean towards gameplay. Rare generally shrunk the scale down (see the top of the dam for instance) and I honestly can't complain because running across a dam that was even longer would break the speed of the level a lot. If I were mapping - granted this is just my personal preference - I'd make those towers more part of the level, maybe adding a table and radio prop, or body armour, or even a sniper rifle and some ammo. Basically a reason to go in them. Actually, the ammo for the M1 is pretty sparse so that last one would be great.

Sogun wrote:

The gate key has it's own meaning but I haven't seen any playthrough discovering it. It's really a shame because it was something I already had in mind before start modeling the level and put quite work on it. Drawing distance is also related to the surprise, heh. One of the beta testers found it and like it a lot.


Damn, now I need to go back and look for that..

EDIT: Nope, couldn't find it. I even went on top of the tankers to see if I was missing a secret area. I guess it's super well hidden. Do you have any hints?

Sogun wrote:

Small rooms in the offices -> The offices were designed as an 00Agent exclusive area and also a multiplayer arena (it has the same size as Archives multi). I tried to make it a realistic building too. Most of them are empty because all the guards that were supposed to be there went outside the building alerted by your gunshot, hehe. We tried to fix that but we couldn't. And it's a real problem, because they open the door and the players can get trapped in the offices in Agent and Secret Agent (I fixed that for final release, but guards can still go outside).


Perhaps you can link a few of the smaller rooms, make them a singlke big one with two entrances? Fewer doors might also be good. As it is, there's a lot to open, and the rooms are pretty small and cluttered. It might make the map seem more breathable. Also, it's pretty neat it's an optional area.

Sogun wrote:

Hideous cars -> I think they were two of the first props modeled at the beggining of the project. Maybe we can improve them without going to crazy with polys. Although cars from that era were ugly like that, heh.


I think it's the mustard yellow that prompted me to say that Wink

Sogun wrote:

The undercover agent knows how to hide. You don't have to go too far in the city to find him, though. The city isn't that complex actually, it's like a circle with a main street crossing it an three death ends. Try to follow a straigh path until you reach the main street and you'll understand the layout easily.


I'll have another look for him, but I think maybe he needs to be a bit more obvious.

EDIT: Yeah, still couldn't find him, and I went around the area many times. I feel like some crates and more cars would populate the street btw. Also, this dead end alleyway seems like a really ideal location for something or someone.

Which level did you work on, Kane? (If it was Miami, that one is DEFINITELY too big lmao)
 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

My level was Shipyard. I actually tried to get the "crate doors" to be a funny off colour, but in the end they just blended in too well! Development was hampered by me not having access to a PC and thus not being able to see my own work, but we got there in the end. The level was kind of "balls out" for fancy lighting and texturing, but it still gets a bit maze like and we cut it up a lot, and it shows. I've spent time working around docks so kind of modelled until it felt like a complete world.

The other one was the multiplayer map "Mall". Based off of two figure eight patterns overlaid on each other.
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Sogun
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hi again Ryani,


I'll comment on your Bodega video and in a later date come back to reply your post-comments about Cartel and Bodega.


-You can't get to the previous level area. The guards have spotted Bond after he blew up the silos and have secluded him in the hotel.

-The beds are part of the background and I didn't want the poly count to go too high, so that's why they are blocky.

-Yeah, there are some pillows in the corridors because movie also had them Razz

-It's a hotel so it's natural that the rooms look similar. They have different furniture distribution and some unique combinations on carpets and pictures in the walls, so they aren't exactly the same. Bonita's rooms is based in movie, I tried to mimic it as much as possible with the props that where available.

-The IA is slow -> I agree. It's the second level but they should react faster, at least in 00Agent, because they aren't a threat at all. I'll look into it.

-Those guards you encountered in the corridors aren't supposed to be there. For some reason they can hear you gunshots from the roof and the basement. We'll try to fix.

-You didn't take a look to the city from the roof! Nobody does Sad

-Movie is from 1953. Not sure if any air conditioners then, but certainly not in that Mexican hotel, hehe.

-I didn't know how to make the lamps to fade out after you shoot them. Now I do. I'll try how it looks. Hopefully no one else used that texture.

-I guess you already played this level before. How much time did you spend looking for the secret door?

-"I like that room". Hehe, me too. I wanted to recreate some very cool lighting in there.

-"It's like Bond in the Dam". That was my intention! I really liked that part. Actually you have similar situations in Silo and Train, but everybody thinks about Dam while playing this section.

-I was planning to model a really complex tree in the backyard but gave up halfway. Now I have more ideas for that corner. I'll try to wow people in the final release.

-You can't see the end the level (the black gap) neither in 4:3 nor in widescreen on console or you usual emulator. It's because the emulator that you are using increases the FOV that you see the gap.



Aside from Alps, I also collaborated in the Steel Mill multiplayer map. I advised Garabuyo with the layout and did the setup, lighting and fog. Emulators don't do justice to that map, it's amazing how it looks on console.
 
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Lazlo52
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Joined: 18 Nov 2017
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 PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Forgive me if what I'm about to say is obvious, but I just want to be sure people know what I know.

Sogun wrote:
-The IA is slow -> I agree. It's the second level but they should react faster, at least in 00Agent, because they aren't a threat at all. I'll look into it.

Assuming you mean slow firing animations, that can be fixed with Reaction Speed in the action blocks. It's a signed byte, so it can only go as fast as 7F. For a second mission, I would think.......30 is a good number. The difference it makes is pretty unnoticeable unless you make big leaps in numbers.

Sogun wrote:
-Those guards you encountered in the corridors aren't supposed to be there. For some reason they can hear you gunshots from the roof and the basement. We'll try to fix.

You can set guards' hearing distance with "Hearing" in the Object Editor. It used to be mislabeled as "Health" but was fixed in the editor's third release. It's commonly set to 3E8 in GoldenEye. You can be sure the guards won't hear anything if you set it to 1.

Sogun wrote:
-I guess you already played this level before. How much time did you spend looking for the secret door?

Since I'm here, I might as well mention that I found it near immediately, but only by chance. It was luck I decided to press B where I did. If you mean what I think you mean, the door should pop out more and the walls less in my opinion.
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Ryani
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 PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I checked out the view from the roof afterwards while wandering around, it's pretty nice Very Happy Makes it feel less like it's floating in a void.

Actually I hadn't played it before. I was lucky enough to walk straight ahead. I suppose it's a history of Doom and Quake training that made me instantly think dead end + bookcases = secret door.

I have Miami up now. Very impressive level, but plays very poorly due to its size and a few sizable bugs. i feel like much of it could be blocked off with crates or something to make the main path smaller.
 
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