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radorn
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

the idea is to maintain texture count down, as it was also said in the initial topic where all this started, and also to enable more dynamic sharing of textures.
If you make a texture you could post it so others can check it to see if it fits their needs instead of making a new one.
A project like this can require lots of new textures for level backgrounds, new guards and special characters and props. How many textures can be reasonably added to the GE ROM before it's needed to replace some of the original ones?
Also, quite a few of the GE textures would not see much use in the world of Goldfinger. What about the many russian propaganda wallpapers, the mayan tiles, the space shuttle textures, to name a few? The places they take in the texture block would be better used with custom ones, don't you think?

Rreplying to SubDrag. Well, my postition is clear, but don't count my opinion as a vote yet because, well, regrettably, I'm not really able to work now. My computer keeps crumbling. It would be rather egoist to pretend to force my work model into others while I'm not really able to work on this.
I'm just sharing my thoughts and trying to get my point across because I think this method would be beneficial. So it's just a "take it or leave it" situation.


Last edited by radorn on Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Don't replace any GE textures yet, need to do as group, but that is a very fair point. I wonder when we will hit the "limit" of 21990 size - I hit it in PD (which uses a ton of textures) after a while.. In the end I can write a tool to strip out unused ones so we can make our map work. But yes absolutely this will be something we need to deal with.

Hmm, definitely interesting and important thoughts.
 
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Dragonsbrethren
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's pretty pointless to worry about it at this stage. I doubt we're going to hit the limit on the number of imported textures anytime soon, and when (if) we finally do, we can worry about it then. I'm only concerned with getting maps imported as efficiently as possible, and maintaining a universal textures file is the way to do that. The way you describe means everyone will import to whatever presets are available in their ROM, then everyone needs to later update their maps when the master list of presets is made. The way I proposed means we're making that master list as we go along--if we run into problems down the road with texture space, then we can edit the one or two maps affected by that and not the entire thing.

I wouldn't even think of replacing GE's existing textures until we're absolutely sure no one needs them. The exception would be guards and other objects with unique textures. For example, if we reskin the Russian infantry, then make use of its texture presets for the new guard.
 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I concur. Basically what you said is wise. Universal textures.txt file and textures...but you can slow using it till you're ready in your level (ie you're in the GE stage now and basics are finished).
 
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monkeyface
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well, a lot of good points and interesting ideas. Obviously, I wont give my five cents. Ain't got any. You know this stuff better than me.

... you bullies destroyed my prop thread...
 
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Dragonsbrethren
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I suppose we did, but you should be able to split out the offending posts with your newly gained mod powers.
 
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monkeyface
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Feels good... I put radorn's post first, a good topic starter.
For the record, I got about 20 textures, and I've done one third of the map, roughly. 50 * 20 = 1000 textures? Remove 200 from that and say that they're already existing ones, but still. Could that cause any trouble?
 
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radorn
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

EDIT: LOL, posting madness xD I said this here because I didn't want to littler the forum, but now I'm at the top of the thread xDD OK

---------

My apologies Sad
BTW, that sunbed is terrific, and with a single texture!

Maybe it would be wise to add a thread or subforum to discuss this kind of matters when they ensue.

DB, I really hope we will never find either ROM space or texture table shortages, but if we do, a bigger problem than a simple recompilation of levels will be needed. Someone will have to retexture something to use other texture/s. I was also trying to avoid this.
I really don't understand why you find it so bothersome to make a recompilation that can take, as much, a couple of minutes.
Exporting to OBJ, updating textures.txt with preset numbers or using the one provided (compiled AFTER ALL MAPPERS/HACKERS declare WHAT TEXTURES THEY ARE USING out of those already present in the repository) and importing again can't be worse than eventually having to retexture something.
Unless, of course, there's some other inconvenience in that process that really outwheights the benefit.

Anyway. another little suggestion: What about giving a guideline as to how much texture data to use. I mean, saying to new level makers "try to stay withing 30-50 64x32 textures" or something like that (my numbers are random though, just say something better). That should help prevent overflowing the limits without much extra work. Just an idea.
 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I would say keep going ahead full steam, editing texture.txt posted when comfortable, and we'll cross the texture limit bridge when we hit it (then decide as community which go and which stay and best way to do it).

Radorn - once you're in GE you may manually make changes, coloring, etc, which you lose every import - you just want to do it once. Resequencing bgfile textures is possible if I write a tool but I'd prefer we just be careful and stay in sync with the common file, adding to end.
 
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radorn
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SubDrag wrote:
once you're in GE you may manually make changes, coloring, etc, which you lose every import


Yeah, yeah, I know you can do vertex coloring and UV mapping within the GE editor (move vertices too?). Wouldn't all that get exported to OBJ from the editor? if you export and reimport they wouldn't get lost, would they? Just asking.
 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

In theory yes. But not manual secondary header editing to add transparency. I wouldn't necessarily trust it though.
 
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radorn
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 PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

mmmm
I see.

What about this then.
Instead of that tool to change texture presets manually within the BG file, you could instead make an special import mode that imported only the updated preset numbers, without actually replacing the geometry so custom stuff isn't lost.
Of course it would only work properly when you import either the same OBJ from which your actual BG was generated or an OBJ exported from it.

The program would keep the BG file that you have with the manual modifications. A new BG file would be generated from the OBJ and a textures.txt file with the updated preset numbers. Now, instead of erasing the old BG file altoghether, you only update the texture presets in it based off the newly generated BG file which has the updated texture presets.

too complicated? worth a shot?
 
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Dragonsbrethren
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Certainly seems like over complication to me. Instead of needing to update one or two texture presets, now you need to update all/most of them in each map. I'm sure an automated tool could do it just as easily, I just fail to see the point.

You keep bring up texture usage. I fail to see how your method is any better. Please enlighten me, because it's sure starting to seem like you're grasping at straws here.
 
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radorn
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm a little short of time, so I'll give you this. hope you don't mind.
It's a conversatuion from the irc channel

(19:16:33) radorn: considering we are adding levels, characters, text, props, we may eventually hit the texture table limit and/or the ROM size limit
(19:16:35) E-S: si i guess it could work either way...hmmmm...
(19:16:3Cool E-S: so*
(19:17:0Cool radorn: in the UNIVERSAL textures.txt scheme
(19:17:37) radorn: someone has to mantain that file and an accompaining ROM
(19:17:46) radorn: and users have to be sure they have the latest one
(19:17:49) radorn: and moreover
(19:17:51) E-S: true...how many textures can we add in, anyway? O_o
(19:18:34) radorn: that ROM and textures file can only be updated WHEN A LEVEL IS FINISHED, IMPORTED AND NOT TOUCHED ANYMORE
(19:19:22) radorn: which hinders the purpose of sharing ROMs between users because people are going to be working in parallel
(19:19:26) radorn: and one level at a time, sequencially.
(19:19:55) radorn: if textures can only be submitted/shared when a level is finished
(19:20:06) radorn: we may not see texture sharing for months
(19:20:37) radorn: and then an explosion of textures submitted that will have little use already because a good portion of the levels will be already done
(19:20:37) E-S: hmmmm....you could try something like reserving texture presets, but then you would go over/under the amount you reserved
(19:21:12) radorn: in my scheme you just submit any texture you use or think is good
(19:21:23) radorn: you keep it with an unique name that wont be changed
(19:21:51) radorn: for this purpose you append a unique string at the start (like your nick) and just keep your textures with unique names
(19:22:0Cool radorn: if someone uses one of your textures he should not change the filename whatsoever
(19:22:26) radorn: so it stays the same
(19:22:46) radorn: you import your level and do whatever to it
(19:23:00) radorn: custom mods, clipping, secondaries, presets, paths. portals....
(19:23:10) radorn: whatever
(19:23:32) radorn: you don't have to care about texture preset numbers at this point
(19:23:36) radorn: just use any for your tests
(19:24:16) radorn: when all levels are going to be imported into a single rom, someone would prepare a ROM with the needed textures
(19:24:36) radorn: and make a textures.txt file with the corresponding preset numbers
(19:25:15) radorn: everyone would use that to export and reimport the BG data so textures match the single ROM now
(19:25:33) radorn: the only problem here is if something gets lost in the export-reimport process
(19:25:3Cool radorn: to solve that
(19:26:16) radorn: I suggested an special import mode that only updates texture presets in the in-use BG file instead of replacing it altoghether
(19:26:27) radorn: I really don't see what's so hard to understand
(19:26:3Cool radorn: and it's full of benefits
(19:26:45) radorn: even for other projects
(19:27:15) radorn: you could even use it to change textures in a BG file you had been working even if it's for another project
(19:27:24) radorn: even if only one user is involved
(19:27:37) radorn: and not many hackers/modders like in this one

I forgot to mention that, during the development process, people could mantain their own test rom with custom textures and an accompaining textures.txt file, and you could test any level made by anyone else by just doing that special reimpot that only changes the texture presets.

is it really that convoluted? I can only see benefits, man.
 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It's not a bad idea, but it's overcomplicated at this time. If we need to write the tool we will, but lets try and share plentifully (as levels get done more textures in bank) and we'll fix the problems when they arise as a community.
 
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