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GE Cradle [FUTURE] improvements?
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oldyz
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:31 am    Post subject: GE Cradle [FUTURE] improvements? Reply with quote Back to top

OK friends - i will paste some comentaries that Ollo has
delivered.

"Hello Super Hacking fellow Bond fans,

we thank you for your efforts on making part of some elementary and about-time things for the
Rareware shooting engines possible...

Now about the cradle:

The level is too easy -
A-- Trevelyan :
__HE is entirely predictable on his patterns and just making a "copy paste" job with his Goldeneye programming would do the PD engine based GE X a disservice.
__(i figure this will be eventually possible, it should be similar to what Wreck does with the models)
B-- Guards
__The advantage they have in GE , is that their shots momentarily paralize you- this is gone in the PD engine, killing groups of guards is easier in PD.
__ADD tho this the secondary punch and they are even more vulnerable
__"They can see over the railings" YEs - but unless you stay still for too long that is no problem if players remain in constant movement.

The only things i can say is -
The fight would be more of a challenge if Trevelyan has a Darksim or perfect sim programming and about 2000 percent health.

If some "hill" programming from the combat sim is implemented he can even run after about- say 2 minutes- to guard his "final showdown" Pad.

I like Trevor's suggestion of objectives based on the movie.
The randomizing suggested by Oldyz is also a nice touch i would like to see...

I'm not lying on the easy part either, and Oldyz suggestion about killing Trevelyan first
and de-activating the Cradle second comes from the way Fumbles and I like to finish the
Cradle level (the game does not allow this)
As you can see from this video:

Arrow Click the picture for the Youtube video

Trevelyan is a joke - just as shameful as Goldeneye Wii's Pseudo-Trevelyan

I would like to see GE x's Trevelyan to be superior challenge to the Wii's and GE64's.

Then again MR Wreck, how possible is it for
CRADLE to be available for "COUNTER-ops" in the next patch Question "



- i had forget how easy Cradle was, in truth needs more challenge.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




One thing that i liked about the cradle in the hardest difficulty is that
you can kill trevelyan and THEN disable the command console.


OF course that was a voluntary choice and there was no Randomness to the console (i think - i don't know if the "right" console changed when re-starting the level)

NOW - here is improved objectives -

IF Bond tries to deactivate the Wrong console....


HE
HAS to KILL trevelyan for the Key card to over-ride the the program on the correct console
- Bond will notice this because IF you run to the other console and try it it will ask for this......

How to maybe achieve this Randomness -
the values for the Skedar pillars are used - they always changed -
IF you are lucky Bond disables the right console and THEN worry about Trevelyan.

IF you are unlucky, you will have to defeat Trevelyan for the Override keycard.

Also on the topic of improving -
can the cradle be made to actually explode (like the explosions at the cetan ship) when the cinema of Bond to helicopter jump comes on?


Last edited by oldyz on Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:28 am; edited 5 times in total
 
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

"Also on the topic of improving -
can the cradle be made to actually explode (like the explosions at the cetan ship) when the cinema of Bond to helicopter jump comes on?"

The only part of the post I understood and like. Im assuming the cutscenes will be a bit more involved but then again this will probably be one of few modifiabe improovments without taking away from the player.

These no doubt will be disscussed later...

Trev
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oldyz
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

OK Trevo:

The original Objectives where:
A. Destroy control console.
B. Settle the score with Trevelyan.

The improved Objectives:
A. Destroy control console.
B. Settle the score with Trevelyan.

BUt there is a twist -

NOw there is 2 command consoles (one inside each of the 2 buildings)
Trevelyan activates the Dish's protocol with something he is carrying
at close range (when he enters the building)

The correct console is decided at random by the game (like the way the pillars at PD's last level )

If you destroy the correct console, then you can go after Trevelyan.
If the game tells you that the console was the wrong one -
A message might say
"Damage detected: Backup Protocol enabled - manual override required"

this means now that you are forced to Kill Trevelyan as fast as you can, pick up his radio device or keycard and THEN deactivate the console that was left intact.
(a more impossible to achieve thing , and many will finish this level with a dramatic 00:00:01 seconds on the timer)
 
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Camaro
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not so sure that would feel right. Plus, it's already pretty damn hard to not die in this level on 00 Agent.

But the exploding cutscene cradle would be cool.
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

You'd need to follow Trevelyan around, drain his health until he heads for the lower platform, hop down there, kill him, take his keycard (providing that the key doesn't fall off and disappear into the abyss), head all the way back up, then disable the console in time, all while trying to avoid being killed by his highly skilled bodyguards?

That sounds like a lot to ask of a player, especially on harder difficulties. I'm also not a huge fan of randomness. It worked fine for Dr. Doak in Facility and the Helicopter Black Box in Statue, but I don't know if I'd want to include any more random factors. I enjoy knowing what I have to do each time, rather than trying to take guesses and hope that I'm right. All the guys who do speedruns would agree.
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armymen12002003
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 PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: GE Cradle [Objectives] improved? Reply with quote Back to top

oldyz wrote:
One thing that i liked about the cradle in the hardest difficulty is that
you can kill trevelyan and THEN disable the command console.


OF course that was a voluntary choice and there was no Randomness to the console (i think - i don't know if the "right" console changed when re-starting the level)

NOW - here is improved objectives -

IF Bond tries to deactivate the Wrong console....

HE
HAS to KILL trevelyan for the Key card to over-ride the the program on the correct console
- Bond will notice this because IF you run to the other console and try it it will ask for this......

How to maybe achieve this Randomness -
the values for the Skedar pillars are used - they always changed -
IF you are lucky Bond disables the right console and THEN worry about Trevelyan.

IF you are unlucky, you will have to defeat Trevelyan for the Override keycard.

Also on the topic of improving -
can the cradle be made to actually explode (like the explosions at the cetan ship) when the cinema of Bond to helicopter jump comes on?


lol 007 messed up
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Not to mention of cource it doesnt fit the movie plot. (I know the game varies it but this "scene" as it were fits almost perfectly - In timeline)

If you realy want to make Cradel more chanlenging then stick to the movie;
Trevelian activates the Drive Shaft from a local terminal/Switch.
Bond then has a quick fight and sabotages the Drive with F.O.D.
As Bond Fights Trevellian again this F.O.D, somehow, manags to 'blow up' the Drive Shaft
Bond lets Trevellian Fall and then jumps onto the waiting hellicopter (Pilot held at gun-point by Natalia)
The damaged Drive "blows up" the entire cradel whereupon it falls onto Trevelian.

So, you could have;
Chase Trevelian
Blow up consol before re-allingment complete
Another Timer (Explosion)
Kill Trevellian before explosion
Cutscene - no matter what time left the cradel still explodes




This idea by the way would be one of those GEX mods for later and not part of GEX.

Trev
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oldyz
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

@ Trevor - this sounds good it only lacks the Random factors

Just making the announcement
First post has a message from Ollo -

ALso
Bond mistake picture (fuuuuuu) has a click surprise. Wink
 
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Random Fators? Why? Why do you want a consol to move?

If you want random factors then how about:
Places Treveleon Stops:
Drive1
LowerD1
D2
CenterSpikes 1,2&3

So instead of rotating these round, have them random (though I thought it was)

Also, how about you have it Fists Only. There you go, try that. (Guards get to shoot you)




As for the way you play it, thats just completly Stupid... Why the hell didnt you blow the dam thing up when you were there?

Theres Playing the dam game the way normal people play it, to complete it, and theres F-ing around.

We all like to F around but to make it part of the mission is just illogical...

Its like saying that you have to Blow up the gas tanks first (causing you to choke) then fight Oremove by chsing him around the facility? Why the hell would you, in normal circumstances, do that. (Ok Ive just though about it and its always possible but doesnt fit the story)

Trev
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oldyz
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Trevor wrote:
Random Fators? Why? Why do you want a consol to move?

Coin toss chances - 2 consoles, everytime you load the game one is the correct one. Blow up the right one just worry about Trevelyan
Blow up wrong one you have to chase him to get "key"-
If you want to avoid the extra challenge
just quit mission and replay to the point where the right console is destroyed-
in emulation just state save when correct console is destroyed...

NOTE: if the "correct" console is destroyed after you mess up first console, mission fails - Key-card has to be used.


Trevor wrote:
If you want random factors then how about:
Places Treveleon Stops:

he already does that but how about he stopping anywhere he wants when he is a good distance away from bond




Trevor wrote:
As for the way you play it, thats just completly Stupid... Why the hell didnt you blow the dam thing up when you were there?

Forgot to mention - Remember That Trevelyan is supposed to have
the Override key card or something on him, in the video there is still 1 minute and few seconds so there was plenty of time to go back and turn off console

Still it is more interesting if the movie actions are also in like you said
 
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Tell, you what. You have actualy done very well to take my Crtisism with only a pinch of salt.

But...

In the interests of the GEX project and so not to start anything unrully...

This can be a Modification for you to accomplish AFTER or SEPERATE from GEX.

It Doesnt fit the movie at all. The end dual is supposed to be exactly that - an end.

Trev
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

its ok .

It is Wreck and the better hackers that are in charge of the project anyway -

making changes to the game like that is not in my reach,
maybe importing a level from goldeneye or just geometries but no more

all i can do is suggest things and with any hope 1 or 2 things will go in.

we find the level too easy the way it is,
Wreck mentioned "speed" players possibly getting mad if the level is too hard -

we do play for speed, but when a game or level look like they have a
"definitive" formula then it is some sort of failure.

Trevelyan as a final boss should be unpredictable,
the ideal is for him to feel like you are playing another human being controlling him.
if somebody beats the "super cradle" in a very short time it should also include the factor that the person who did it had very good luck.

say the cradle is re-made using your objective suggestions
the randomness console factor, guards shooting over rails and an almost human Trevelyan -

the player that beats the level in a short time will do it because

1- Blow up correct console before re-allingment complete at the beginning

2- he gets lucky and carries 2 or 3 grenades from the guards
(player uses those grenades to take "super trevelyan's" health down)

OR
use them to destroy the tough "gears" -" Another Timer (Explosion)"-
that you can destroy instead of getting Trevelyan's keycard

and remeber super trevelyan will run to his final spot when his health is lowest anyway or after some time - if players are good enough they can kill him with about 12 headshots before he gets there.

3- player avoids getting shot and shoots well (headshots)


Remember - games give you the opportunity to take a movie character and change the choice the character had
- the ending cinemas in GE change -
if you can kill trevelyan in the final platform without making him fall
- the cinema does not show him falling
(you do this by killing him with his back facing stairs- he falls in to fetal position)
this should also happen if you kill trevelyan before he reaches his final platform , but it is not programmed that way
falling trevelyan animation happens as soon as bond falls to the final showdonwn pad - the modified animation only works on the platform -

This is something that needs to be fixed either by never allowing players to kill Trevelyan anywhere else on the cradle, or by having the ending animations change (no trevelyan falling) and just bond jumping to helicopter - if you are Super Bond and kill trevelyan before he reaches his destiny.

Like you say Trevor , it is lots of work.
maybe some years later someone can take this readings and make it happen.
i have to write them down now because i may not have the chance to see it for X reasons, but at least somebody can take this and use it and somebody else will see...
 
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Ok, err.. Im not sure but you may be mis-quoting me on a few things???

First off though, Ending Animation.

As far as I know, [Game Type: PAL, Consol: Yes] there are 3 end animations that combine to give final cutscene, they are:
1. Bond Stands, Trevellian Falls
2. Trevelian Stands, Bond Falls
3. Bond Jumps to Hellicopter.
* 4. Bond Stands, No-one falls.

Now If you kill T on platform Animation 1 & 3 play.
* If you kill T withought him falling 4 & 3 play.
If you get killed on platorm (or fall) Animation 2 plays
Finaly If you kill trevellian (With gold PPK) before platform then only Animation 3 plays after you jump onto platform (Actualy it starts as you fall to the platform)


"making changes to the game like that is not in my reach,
maybe importing a level from goldeneye or just geometries but no more "

Now I would have said that editing objectives and Action blocks would have been slightly easyer than geometry. Unless you're talking about 3d modeling withought importing to GE (Which is what I do)


"Trevelyan as a final boss should be unpredictable,
the ideal is for him to feel like you are playing another human being controlling him."

Ok, good idea, I think I aggreed and touched on this already. Remember This is already slightly coming true, looking at the screenshot on page 1 of Cradel Thread. It would be nice if there were more PADS? for him to go to. Maybe getting him to be a little more 'intelegent' and take cover instead of just standing there.


"re-made using your objective suggestions
the randomness console factor"

A mis-Quote, This is not my suggestion, this was yours.


"1- Blow up correct console before re-allingment complete at the beginning "

Still Dont like the idea...


"destroy the tough "gears" -" Another Timer (Explosion)"-
that you can destroy instead of getting Trevelyan's keycard "

This is where you've changed my idea;
My idea being that in the movie there was no consol but just the drive shaft. Timer coming from the fact it started to overload the circuts and eventualy leads to the destruction of the cradel.


Anyway, I think Ive covered everything?

Trev
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

"re-made using your objective suggestions,
the randomness console factor"

there was supposed to be a coma there.

about the animations -
here is the video of what happens when trevelyan dies
on the platform:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgA-P9KbhYM&hd=1

after he dissapears it goes right to helicopter jump.

This animation should happen in any time trevelyan dies with no falling involved -
weird thing , he teletransports to his falling animation if you kill him in other places....

Now Trevor's ideas of the movie elements are good-
i just combined them with our Randomness factor to try and see if it was more appealing.

Twisted Evil The HELL CRadleTwisted Evil

is the result of that -

It offers 2 paths for completion

The easy path - Destroy console, Kill Trevelyan - time to complete about 2 minutes tops

The hard path- Destroy Wrong console, Kill Trevelyan, go to other console, OVERLOAD WARNING 2.5 -seconds running start-, escape explosions. time to complete about 5 to 6 minutes.

most will just choose Mission quit and replay to get the good console -
but eventually will be tempted to just tough it out and go trough the infernal escenario.

it does not go with the movie, but it will have a more satisfaction feeling for those who succeed
 
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

About the only idea I'm even liking thus far, is trying to make Trevelyan smarter and stronger.
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