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Maps we'd like to see in Goldeneye X
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Kerr Avon
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 PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:54 am    Post subject: Maps we'd like to see in Goldeneye X Reply with quote Back to top

I thought I'd start a topic here for us to name maps we'd like to see ported into Goldeneye X, as a subtle hint for Subdrag, Zoinkity, Wreck etc ( Very Happy ).

Personally I'd say;

The War: Colours map from Conker's Bad Fur Day. This is one of my favourite maps ever, and it works very well in CBFD, and I don't doubt it would work very well in Goldeneye X, too. It's mostly an open map, built for sniping and open warfare, with little scope for hiding, so it would contrast with most other GEX maps, adding to the appeal.

The Forest map from The World is Not Enough. This is a great map, and I'd love to see it in GEX. There are other great TWINE maps I'd like to see in GEX too, such as Frostbite, Merchant, Instanbull and Silo Surprise, but the Forest is the main one, as it's so enjoyable, and very atmospheric and moody. And since the data format for TWINE is (I imagine) understood, since Labyrinth is already ported to GEX, then hopefully it wouldn't be too difficult to port the TWINE maps to GEX.

I'd also *love* to see all of the Perfect Dark multiplayer maps in GEX. I know that doesn't fit in with the Goldeneye-brought-to-the-PD-engine aim, but they could be included by not used by GEX in any presets (i.e. the Assignments don't use the Perfect Dark maps, but the user can select them if he choses for any player-defined matches). Since GEX isn't being pressed onto a real cartridge, and has to instead be used on an emulator or an Everdrive 64 type device, then can you do what the modders behind the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time mod 'Voyager of Time' have done, and extend the ROM size from 32MB to 64MB? This would give you lots of space, which you could use to include all thirteen (or sixteen, if you include the three updated Goldeneye maps that were in PC) maps, plus whatever else you might need the space for?

Please consider this, as being able to play GEX on levels such as the Total War: Colours map, Forest, PD's Warehouse, PD's G5, and PD's Base would be *fantastic*. And of course if any person didn't like a particular map, then they just wouldn't have to select it.
 
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 PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

not a bad idea Kerrn Avon, although personally I prefer a map that does not belong Goldeneye may be subject to a vote. we will have to consider if memory is remaining in the game to do things how are you. maps is that very many would fit very well in multiplayer, some of them "TWINE" eg forest map I think it's a lot more immense GE Dam and even Alaska PD also. in Castlevania64 and no maps Nightmare-Creatures64 enchant I see in PD. personally I think you can make a pack with esots maps and included in any patch, but sometimes I have my doubts whether they should be included in GEX.

if what you have are doubts about whether you can make a mod of another game in the PD engine, I guess that can be consulted, and so I think you can make a mod itself so that does not affect the mod GEX.
 
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 PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Kerr Avon,

GoldenEye: X was created with the purpose of porting all the GE content to the Perfect Dark engine to, in a way, have the ultimate FPS for the N64. A lot has been discused about how GE exceeds PD and viceversa, so that's why some characters, weapons and multi levels are going to be kept from PD with some visual changes, so they fit better in the James Bond universe.

I'm sure Zoinkity will be able to explain it better, but basically TWINE engine is so different from GE/PD and with so many flaws, that porting Labyrinth required a lot of effort. So I wouldn't expect him to do another TWINE port, although there are other alternatives I'll explain later.

Zelda Voyager of Time hasn't extended the rom size. They are using the 64MB debug rom with some extra content that was leaked when the Gamecube ports of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were done.
GE roms can be extended to 16 MB, even if it's just to make extra room for more textures and not for extra maps. The Editor can't do that for PD yet (there's still a lot of free room in the ROM, though), but I'm sure it can be done if needed. Actually, you can extend the number of multi maps for PD with editor; if you check my Kakariko patch you'll see that all the original multi maps are there, plus 5 versions of Kakariko. And you can go even further.


With that said, I don't think your ideas will be considered for the official GE:X but you can do your own mods for it yourself just like in any other GE/PD rom.
Some people prefers the original Citadel map against the makeover I did. They can easily extract the original Citadel (from GE:X patch 4) and replace the makeover. Actually you can replace any multi map with a couple of clicks if you know what are you doing. For example, imagine you don't like the Train multi map and you want PD Grid to be there instead; you can do it (with weird GE textures, hehe).

So replacing GE:X maps with other PD maps is very simple. Even extending the multi level list so you have all maps is doable. The only thing left is knowing how to convert maps from other games to PD (and GE) and that's the most complicated part.
Even if Zoinkity doesn't port another map from TWINE, it can be done ripping it with 1964 emulator and the Nemu graphic plugin (the same way I did Kakariko). I'm still learning a better way to do it since I had to retexture the map myself in the process.
Anyway, these new maps don't need to be created specifically for GE:X, as they work for all PD roms. So if you find in the vault a map that you want in your GE: X version, you can add it easily.
 
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 PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: Maps we'd like to see in Goldeneye X Reply with quote Back to top

Kerr Avon wrote:
I thought I'd start a topic here for us to name maps we'd like to see ported into Goldeneye X, as a subtle hint for Subdrag, Zoinkity, Wreck etc ( Very Happy ).

Personally I'd say;

The War: Colours map from Conker's Bad Fur Day. This is one of my favourite maps ever, and it works very well in CBFD, and I don't doubt it would work very well in Goldeneye X, too. It's mostly an open map, built for sniping and open warfare, with little scope for hiding, so it would contrast with most other GEX maps, adding to the appeal.

The Forest map from The World is Not Enough. This is a great map, and I'd love to see it in GEX. There are other great TWINE maps I'd like to see in GEX too, such as Frostbite, Merchant, Instanbull and Silo Surprise, but the Forest is the main one, as it's so enjoyable, and very atmospheric and moody. And since the data format for TWINE is (I imagine) understood, since Labyrinth is already ported to GEX, then hopefully it wouldn't be too difficult to port the TWINE maps to GEX.

I'd also *love* to see all of the Perfect Dark multiplayer maps in GEX. I know that doesn't fit in with the Goldeneye-brought-to-the-PD-engine aim, but they could be included by not used by GEX in any presets (i.e. the Assignments don't use the Perfect Dark maps, but the user can select them if he choses for any player-defined matches). Since GEX isn't being pressed onto a real cartridge, and has to instead be used on an emulator or an Everdrive 64 type device, then can you do what the modders behind the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time mod 'Voyager of Time' have done, and extend the ROM size from 32MB to 64MB? This would give you lots of space, which you could use to include all thirteen (or sixteen, if you include the three updated Goldeneye maps that were in PC) maps, plus whatever else you might need the space for?

Please consider this, as being able to play GEX on levels such as the Total War: Colours map, Forest, PD's Warehouse, PD's G5, and PD's Base would be *fantastic*. And of course if any person didn't like a particular map, then they just wouldn't have to select it.



I STRONGLY AGREE with the TWINE statement. We need a DESPERATE PORT of the Solo maps into the level editor , whatever. The maps in TWINE are amazing for their time and i personally would love to see ALL of them ported into PD. Forest is amazing but what's even more amazing are the SOLO LEVEL maps in the game. I want a multi!!! ;D Cool
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 PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I go the other way. I want to remove labyrinth.
 
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 PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'd like to do an overhaul of "Mars Needs Women" from the Bungiee game Marathon. It was a very sectional map that had some great combat areas. Phobos Moon from the origional UT was very good also - one of the big issues with both of these maps is that they were designe in non-euleian space. Rust was about the only Modern Warfare map we ever played. The thing about all three of these maps is that they're small, with good tight combat situations Smile
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 PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Agreed on the arena from Conker's BFD, that would rock arse
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Kerr Avon
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 PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sogun wrote:
Hi Kerr Avon,


Hello mate! And to everyone else in this thread.

Quote:
GoldenEye: X was created with the purpose of porting all the GE content to the Perfect Dark engine to, in a way, have the ultimate FPS for the N64. A lot has been discused about how GE exceeds PD and viceversa, so that's why some characters, weapons and multi levels are going to be kept from PD with some visual changes, so they fit better in the James Bond universe.


I understand. You mean that most PD maps wouldn't fit in with the feel of GE, so probably won't make it in to GEX? Fair enough, but I can always hope that maybe when GEX is finished, the authors might make a 'Deluxe' version, with all PD maps put in as a bonus!


Quote:

I'm sure Zoinkity will be able to explain it better, but basically TWINE engine is so different from GE/PD and with so many flaws, that porting Labyrinth required a lot of effort. So I wouldn't expect him to do another TWINE port, although there are other alternatives I'll explain later.


Alternatives like what? Do you mean from other games, or other methods of porting TWINE maps?


Quote:

Zelda Voyager of Time hasn't extended the rom size. They are using the 64MB debug rom with some extra content that was leaked when the Gamecube ports of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were done.
GE roms can be extended to 16 MB, even if it's just to make extra room for more textures and not for extra maps. The Editor can't do that for PD yet (there's still a lot of free room in the ROM, though), but I'm sure it can be done if needed. Actually, you can extend the number of multi maps for PD with editor; if you check my Kakariko patch you'll see that all the original multi maps are there, plus 5 versions of Kakariko. And you can go even further.


I've played the Kakariko maps, they're great (and it's really nice having weather in deathmatch!), and it is a really nice touch making different version available, so the player can decide which to use, based on his/her tolerance of frame-rate versus detail.


Quote:

With that said, I don't think your ideas will be considered for the official GE:X but you can do your own mods for it yourself just like in any other GE/PD rom.


That's assuming I have the talent to mod the game, which isn't exactly certain! Are there any tutorials for the GE/PD editor I can look through, please?


Quote:

Some people prefers the original Citadel map against the makeover I did. They can easily extract the original Citadel (from GE:X patch 4) and replace the makeover. Actually you can replace any multi map with a couple of clicks if you know what are you doing. For example, imagine you don't like the Train multi map and you want PD Grid to be there instead; you can do it (with weird GE textures, hehe).


That's interesting to know. I take it the textures are potentially shared over other single/multiplayer maps, so that if, for example, I did exchange the Train for the Grid, then if I restored the Grid's textures then potentially any other level (single or multiplayer) would reflect the texture change, provided it accessed the changed texture data?


Quote:

So replacing GE:X maps with other PD maps is very simple. Even extending the multi level list so you have all maps is doable. The only thing left is knowing how to convert maps from other games to PD (and GE) and that's the most complicated part.


I Imagine so. I don't know how the levels are described in their data tables, would it be possible for someone to make a Windows based level editor that was drag and drop, What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get, sort of the like the map makers in the Timesplitters games?

Quote:

Even if Zoinkity doesn't port another map from TWINE, it can be done ripping it with 1964 emulator and the Nemu graphic plugin (the same way I did Kakariko). I'm still learning a better way to do it since I had to retexture the map myself in the process.


I have no idea at all how to do any of that, are there any tutorials, please?


Quote:

Anyway, these new maps don't need to be created specifically for GE:X, as they work for all PD roms. So if you find in the vault a map that you want in your GE: X version, you can add it easily.


That's good to know, thanks. Thanks for the detailed answer.



mistamontiel wrote:
Agreed on the arena from Conker's BFD, that would rock arse


It is a very good level, isn't it? And the War: Colours game is very good too (I play it for hours at a time, just me and the bots), and I love the way you can change your class just by picking up a weapon (which, when your weapon is drawn, alters your movement speed, your jumping ability, and any special status - i.e. if you have the Katana you don't appear on a radar and move silently), which (for me) takes the boredom out of class specific games as you can effectively change class whenever you like.

War: Colours is by far my favourite part of the whole Conker's Bad Fur Day experience, and is one of my favourite multiplayer games ever.
 
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 PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

In Conker's BFD, I remember you could leak on each other to the death.

That electric shocking area.. the fire traps.. the bathroom.. I think that map is featured in two gameplay modes.. just imagine if all that could be simulated in GE/PD LOL
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 PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I remember there was a poll about what three levels people wanted to keep from PD in GE:X with a change of theme. At least that was Wreck idea at first, mimicking what PD did with Temple, Complex and Felicity.
You can expand the PD multi map list but there's a limit so can't add as much content as wanted. I don't know how many new maps can be added, but it is a good amount.

I'm sure a lot of people (me included) will love to see multi maps such as full Archives, Facility backzone, full Control... (almost any solo mission that fits multiplayer) included in GE:X, and that lessens they spots available.

In my opinion, if someone wants to play the original PD maps then there's the original rom already. We all hope for a time when all the content from GE and PD can be merged in one rom. I think it's possible but we don't have the ability yet.


I said you can replace maps easily in PD but that's not completely true. The issue are custom textures. Every polygon has a texture attached to it, and that texture has an ID (four number in hex, like 0F5E).
GE:X has replaced most of PD textures with the ones from GE instead of adding them at the end of rom. Probably to keep IDs the same and port the maps and characters easier.
If the textures from the new map aren't in the rom or they don't have the same IDs, you'll have to fix that manually in editor.


I own Conker Bad Fur Day but I haven't beat it yet, so I haven't seen this War map you are talking too. I have in mind some other N64 game maps to do for GE/PD like Kakariko, so if I like the map I'll probably add it to my to-do list, hehe.

You can convert any N64 map to GE/PD thanks to a graphic plugin for the 1964 emulator that rips the graphics that are loaded into a WRML file for polygons and BMPs for textures. You need to know how to merge different WRML files (if the map is splited like the ones in GE/PD) and do the changes to addapt it to the GE/PD engine; so modelling skills are required.

Acceptable67 was able to rip part of the first level of TWINE and merged it into one file keeping the textures in the process, so perhaps he can explain how he did it, hehe.
 
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 PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sogun wrote:
I own Conker Bad Fur Day but I haven't beat it yet, so I haven't seen this War map you are talking too.



We're discussing the maps in the minigames/Multi section in Conker's BFD menu.

I think you have all of it from the getgo, from the start.

There's also WELDERSBENCH cheat for every chapter/segment unlocked. Conker's BFD kicks my ass hard
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 PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sogun wrote:
I remember there was a poll about what three levels people wanted to keep from PD in GE:X with a change of theme. At least that was Wreck idea at first, mimicking what PD did with Temple, Complex and Felicity.
You can expand the PD multi map list but there's a limit so can't add as much content as wanted. I don't know how many new maps can be added, but it is a good amount.

I'm sure a lot of people (me included) will love to see multi maps such as full Archives, Facility backzone, full Control... (almost any solo mission that fits multiplayer) included in GE:X, and that lessens they spots available.


Oh yes! I'm a big advocate of the Player-should-be-allowed-to-decide-everything approach to gaming, and I'd love to see single player maps playable in multiplayer, though some should perhaps be modified somewhat to make them less linear and have more accessible areas and paths from the 'end' of the level back to the beginning or mid point again.

Goldeneye did a fair (not great) job of having part of some single player levels in multiplayer, and so I was especially disappointed that Perfect Dark did not. To me, the Carrington Institute, parts of Area 51, and Chicago: Streets especially could have made great multiplayer maps had they been modified for the multiplayer mode.



Quote:

In my opinion, if someone wants to play the original PD maps then there's the original rom already.


I agree, and PD is a *fantastic* game to play them with (I prefer the PD weapons to the GE weapons), but it would be nice to play them with GE's weapons too. But yes, the PD levels aren't exactly a priority for GEX, I'd prefer to see non-GE/PD levels put into GEX, so we can play them in Rare's style of first person shooter.


Quote:

We all hope for a time when all the content from GE and PD can be merged in one rom. I think it's possible but we don't have the ability yet.

I said you can replace maps easily in PD but that's not completely true. The issue are custom textures. Every polygon has a texture attached to it, and that texture has an ID (four number in hex, like 0F5E).
GE:X has replaced most of PD textures with the ones from GE instead of adding them at the end of rom. Probably to keep IDs the same and port the maps and characters easier.
If the textures from the new map aren't in the rom or they don't have the same IDs, you'll have to fix that manually in editor.


Understood.



Quote:

I own Conker Bad Fur Day but I haven't beat it yet, so I haven't seen this War map you are talking too. I have in mind some other N64 game maps to do for GE/PD like Kakariko, so if I like the map I'll probably add it to my to-do list, hehe.


No, the Colours map is a multiplayer map - boot the game, then when in the pub (the main menu), press left or right until you face the bar, then press A to enter the cellar, which is the multiplayer menu, then select War, then War: Colours, which is a capture the flag game, with only one map playable (you can't select another map, you can only use the one default map - for some reason, most gameplay modes in Conker's Bad Fur Day's multiplayer each only have one map, unique to that mode). War: Colours, is a standard capture the flag game, except your class changes slightly depending on the weapon you're carrying (you can only carry one weapon, and when you walk over another weapon then your current weapon disappears and you pickup the new one) and the map is asymmetrical and is good for sniping, which would make it almost unique in Goldeneye X or Perfect Dark (I'd be very happy to see it converted to either).




Quote:

You can convert any N64 map to GE/PD thanks to a graphic plugin for the 1964 emulator that rips the graphics that are loaded into a WRML file for polygons and BMPs for textures. You need to know how to merge different WRML files (if the map is splited like the ones in GE/PD) and do the changes to addapt it to the GE/PD engine; so modelling skills are required.

Acceptable67 was able to rip part of the first level of TWINE and merged it into one file keeping the textures in the process, so perhaps he can explain how he did it, hehe.


OK, thanks.



mistamontiel wrote:
In Conker's BFD, I remember you could leak on each other to the death.

That electric shocking area.. the fire traps.. the bathroom.. I think that map is featured in two gameplay modes.. just imagine if all that could be simulated in GE/PD LOL


That's a different map, The Bunker,. A great game, though, isn't it? Sadly not too many people got to play CBFD, as it came so late in the N64's life, wasn't advertised too well (didn't Nintendo of America refuse to push it?) and was hard to find for many people.
 
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 PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Okay here's the DEAL: I know I'll never be satisfied until we have used up every resource available on these two games. PERFECT DARK and GOLDENEYE both are great games with TWINE being my 3rd favorite. I agree with Sub that Labrinth isn't even one of the better maps in TWINE. My favs were SOLO maps like the ski resort and several others. Wink We have plenty of work left guys so keep it moving forward. Wink MultiplayerX
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 PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Sorry I haven't been around at all. Wow, apparently the forum code is updated ;*)

I've already publicly released the TWINE extraction and conversion tools. There available here:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jcxa91a9smjdr9b

Outside of two non-portable scripts specially written for Labyrinth everything I used is in there. I used the direct binary porting options, but if you don't want to sit down with a hex editor or understand the lower-level structures you can always output as a model and import via editor. I didn't use the editor at all, so you can't complain it isn't a relatively complete solution.

The intrinsic problem, outside of crummy things like cardboard trees and such, is you'll be doing an enormous amount of cleanup combining tiles and refitting textures.
You'll also run into serious image issues, namely using way too many IDs and a few unsupported features. Short of a scripted workaround for image impacts against embedded images or rewriting major parts of the engine to support move IDs than 0xFFE (0xFFF is caught as a special case) you're pretty much screwed in that regard.

Everything you need to port TWINE stages is provided though. Most of it is automated, and in the worst case you have the source code and some structure notes. There are a few rooms that throw an error, probably due to my own bad coding.

I'm not doing any more TWINE porting. At all.
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 PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

zoinkity wrote:
I'm not doing any more TWINE porting. At all.


A pity, but fair enough. Thanks for the tools (downloading them now) and information, BTW, though I doubt I'll produce anything inpressive with them, sadly.

Why is the file called 'TWINK' instead of TWINE? And why is it a .zip file inside of a .7z file, wouldn't it have made more sense to just 7zip the uncompressed files?
 
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