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Chasms: To Die, or Not To Die...
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Wreck
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:04 am    Post subject: Chasms: To Die, or Not To Die... Reply with quote Back to top

So we all know that PD had a bunch of areas in the Combat Simulator maps (and even some missions) where you could slip over an edge and fall to your death. Well, the question here is: should death chasms be utilized in GoldenEye X? For fun, let's see the places where it could occur...

Dam: Beside the metal brides near the start of the mission.
Runway: At the end of the runway.
Jungle: The wood/rope bridge before Xenia.
Cradle: The bottom platform, and an area before it.
Aztec: Multiple places in the temple ruins section.
Complex: The V-shaped bridge and spiral ramp.

In most cases, it's fairly simple to avoid the pitfalls. But it minimizes the use of "invisible walls" and gives players one more unique thing that GoldenEye 007 didn't offer.

I'd like to hear what you guys think on this matter. Please discuss your feelings on the pros and cons of utilizing these chasms.
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Kerr Avon
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Chasms: To Die, or Not To Die... Reply with quote Back to top

I'm surprised to find that I don't have a big opinion about this. I mean, I loved the ability to fall and die in PD, as it removed the (to me) restriction that GE imposed. So in that respect, I would prefer it in GEX, yes. But on the other hand, the inability to fall to your death was sort of a GE-only idiosyncrasy, and so it would make GEX more GE-ish.

I think personally I'd prefer it if you could fall to your death, but I'm not bothered really either way (sorry if that sounds apathetic, in most other GEX aspects I do have strong feelings/wishes).

Would it be a lot of trouble for you to implement (especially as regards letting the sims fall of the levels due to weapon effects)? If so, then I'd definitely say leave it, and perhaps if you change your mind later, add it to the list of things to do when you've added/changed everything important and are just adding the icing to the cake.
 
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I like it, I think it brings a extra element of fun to old levels, something new to experience... is it possible to make 2 different patches, like one patch with chasms and one without(for people that want to play old school Goldeneye style gameplay), kinda like the clouds deal?
 
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Wreck
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It does take a little bit of work setting up the clipping and path network to allow Sims to properly navigate around chasms, so they don't just go falling in every time they're in the area, or act up trying to cross over a platform that has a wall below it.

I've actually already done this for Complex VR, and was quite satisfied with the test results. The underside of the V-shaped bridged wasn't drawn (looking up from below showed nothing), so I needed to add that into the BG file. But it works really well, and does offer something totally new to the level. My only concern is, because of how popular and iconic the Complex is, does this new element add or take away from the gameplay? I guess playing it for yourselves is the only way to find out.

In one release, some may remember, I let the glass in Facility be broken when shot at. This was an experiment to see how the map would play out. Since it didn't go over very well, I changed it back in the next release. I figure some things are worth trying out at least once.

I'm not really a fan of releasing yet another patch, just for one level (at this time). The cloudless version is just an option for people to use if they're having issues rendering the sky on emulators with certain plugins. It can look really awful and distracting, which you definitely don't want when you're trying to focus on your opponents.
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well my thoughts on this issue are similar to what Kerr Avon said. And honestly, imo, I think adding chasms for GEX is the right way to go. GE007 was a game from 1997 and it's 2014 now. Besides, if Speedruntrainers or gamers (or whatever they are called) known the world over know GE like the back of their hands, adding chasms can be challenging for those who want to speedrun GE:X's solo missions. They may expect GE:X to emulate GE007 to a T with no upgrades to the levels so they would go right through it. Chasms adds more of a challenge to the game. I like when video games are more challenging to me cause they are more difficult to play and they make you want to play them over and over and over again until you beat them. A more challenging game brings Replay Value to it. Chasms in VR adds a new unexpected element to the maps that players wouldn't expect. I have been thinking about how the Combat Simulator maps in PD were like Pipes and the one with that huge lift (can't remember the name of the level) and they were more fun and challenging with chasms. So for me I say lets go with them and give them a testrun and see how well they are received by GE:X players around. If people like them, keep them, if they don't then remove them. We will never know until they are in the game.

That beginning part in Dam would be a good place to allow chasms in as well as in Cradle in the bottom platform and the otherside of the bottom level in Cradle in the other side where the showdown with 006 is. In Jungle, doesn't the rope bridge have like some kind of side hand rails to hold on to? If that's the case, that's is the only exception I would allow chasms to be in. If the sides are open on both ends then they should be added.
 
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acceptable67
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I am for it. It simply adds something that GE did not offer and that is what this project is about.
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I have to say I'm not a big fan of chasms but they make the game more realistic and another thing the player must be aware of.

So I'm ok if you add them, although I won't know until I try, hehe.
 
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

What about non-lethal falls, like the hole in Temple or shortcutting ramps? I'd imagine you'd want to be consistant. If anything, non-lethal holes would be more of a hassle.

Granted the AI pathing would have to be tested, but once it's set up the only difference between lethal holes and normal stages would be clipping.

Surprisingly passive response to this though. Almost shocking. If anything it would be nice to do holes to retain more of the PD gameplay.
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Okay so I just took a look at the bridge in Jungle. Would it be possible to create an invisible wall in the middle of the sides and not at the bottom so if you do a double crouch you can fall off the bridge on the sides but not if you're standing straight. Maybe create an opening hole in the bottom of the sides that you can be able to fall from? Also I always thought it seemed silly that Cradle has those openings in the bottom level but you can't fall down from them. Also maybe in Caverns in the spot where you have the body armour at where you can be shot through. Maybe those areas where you can view the water you have to be cautious from not falling off this time around. I am open to chasms and I'm with acceptable67 on this one.
 
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm realy not sure at all if i like the idea or not, i think i would have to actually play test it but having said that i think im leaning toward having you fall to your death Smile
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 PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

When I was working on the Dam level port I actually asked myself this a fair amount. I found in PD that blatantly obvious edges etc. were inclined to have an invisible wall (as though the character actually said "I'm not going to drop down there") but areas where transversing something were a test of skill or ability there was the option to fall (almost a game within a game). That said, I always felt that the game was a bit "kooshy" for it's inability to fall off something although if I remember the community was less than happy about the idea of falling down the initial chasm Wink

My vote is for the ability to fall to your demise. I've often wondered how the Dam would end if the player walked off backwards too...

On that note: have you had some success getting the Dam up and running in PD?
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I personally think they add nothing of value to GoldenEye's gameplay, especially not in multiplayer. They're certainly not one of my must have features from Perfect Dark. In fact that only place I think they improved the gameplay at all in PD was that section of G5 multi where you could jump between walkways.
 
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 PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Dragonsbrethren wrote:
I personally think they add nothing of value to GoldenEye's gameplay, especially not in multiplayer. They're certainly not one of my must have features from Perfect Dark. In fact that only place I think they improved the gameplay at all in PD was that section of G5 multi where you could jump between walkways.


Oh no, I do think it added to PD, in levels such as Skedar, Grid, Ravine, etc, where you could walk/run off ledges at will, plus it was great in PD's version of Temple, being able to fall down the hole in the big room.

As I said though, I'm not hugely in favour of either option for GEX, though if you were making a game that was not based on Goldeneye then I'd definately say you should have the ability to fall off ledges. But since this is GEX, then I can understand how some people would want to keep such a Goldeneye-style gameplay mechanic in.

But me, I'm 60% in favour of being able to fall in GEX, and 40% not, up from 55%/45% when I made my first post.
 
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I don't have a problem with being able to drop off ledges, I just don't think death pits have any place in the game.
 
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 PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

But picking and choosing which ledges you can go over makes for a less believable experience. Obviously no one has any issues with hopping off of catwalks in Stack or jumping down the big hole in Temple. This not only lets players move around from this area to that area much faster, it also adds more realism to the gameplay. These are "invisible walls" that are being removed from levels. Keeping some in place, simply to prevent players from possibly falling down a generally easy to avoid chasm, is failing to take advantage of the improved clipping design. I personally found it weird in the sections of PD missions where you couldn't go over edges. Since you have more freedom to go from place to place, stepping down from higher platforms in many situations, it's almost disappointing and strange when you can't. Even if that's to avoid death.

In some minds, it might not "add" anything to GoldenEye's gameplay, but the real question is: does it really take away from it? Being that it is so underused, and in locations where it is easy to navigate around without fear of falling in, players may have to leap in under their own control just to see the screen go red.
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