GoldenEye 007 Nintendo 64 Community, GoldenEye X, Nintendo 64 Games Discussion

[madmax386]

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/new-goldeneye-and-banjo-on-xbox-one-rare-says-they-aren-t-necessarily-what-you-want/1100-6418357/
You FOOL!! Thats exactly what I want just in HD and ONLINE! no other changes.

[Wreck]

Sad as it may sound, I don't really want anything new from Rare. Think about PD Zero and Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts. Both games were made years after finding their first (or second) success, created by a totally different team of developers. What happens? That old magic just doesn't spark. About the only title from their rich history that I wouldn't mind seeing a new entry for, is Killer Instinct. Other than that, nothing interests me. It's like all Resident Evil games from 4 and on. Though they are fine in their own way, they'll never compare to the others.
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[Kerr Avon]

Rare on the N64 were, to me, the finest example of a software houses output ever. The games were very good to often superb (I'm not including Mickey's Speedway (never played it, I don' know if it even came out in PAL?) or Killer Instinct (I don't like fighting games so I never played it) but the rest make up the best chain of releases I've ever seen from one company), but sadly that was a different time, with different members of Rare , and when Rare's philosophy was different.

Back then (as shown by the Conker's Bad Fur Day director's commentary - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFP9r6vJL2qCCERMBP_ZWUEV0vaSL4rHf) the game makers themselves often had the attitude of "I've just thought of something, let's try this and see if it adds to the game" and the company's bosses often tried to allow the game makers more time if at all possible to fine tune the game and add more to it. But after the Microsoft buy-out the game makers seemed (judging by their output) to share the mostly industry-wide attitude of "Here's the design we started with, let's work rigidly with it and not waste time trying to improve it or make any parts unique or memorable", and the bosses seemed to care only about hitting the deadlines. I might be reading a lot more into the current situation than there is, of course, but I see no reason to think that.

Nowadays of course, Rare only make Kinnect games (at least on console, and I don't have a hand-held so they don't apply to me) so they don't appeal to me at all. Like a lot of gamers, I don't like motion control at all.

[MRKane]

There's been a lot that's been forced to change in the industry unfortunately. In the directors commentary for Monkey Island 2 the developers joke about how they'd come up with an idea during lunch, and have it in the game by afternoon tea, and apparently much of the comedy got into it that way. Then one said "but with voice recording, we now have a deadline where all the lines need to be written...it's like spontaneity stops at this date." Even working in it myself there's a date by and of which if anything new shows up we just say "crap...there goes the weekend and a weeks sleep" - and all too often it's not worth it, but it's just some stupid feature the client wants. I'd say Rare got into that trap when Microsoft brought them.
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No Mr. Bond, I expect you to be re-coded!

[Kerr Avon]

In the interesting History of the Gamecube article at;

http://www.dromble.com/2014/01/07/dolphin-tale-story-of-gamecube/

the sale of Rare to Microsoft is discussed, and to me the most interesting part is where the (ex)-Rare employees say that before they moved to Microsoft they were really looking forward to it, as they felt Microsoft would be less controlling than Nintendo, but when they went over to Microsoft they found M$ to be much more controlling than Nintendo ever were, so much so that M$ effectively crushed a number of (seemingly very promising) projects that were at various stages of completion, as M$ wanted Rare to concentrate on 'family friendly' games, which as we know now were aimed (then or later) purely at the Kinnect.

[Wreck]

There's a videogame company in my city, Silicon Knights, who have a similar history. They started small, working on PC games. Had some success with a few. Later they put out some great games for GameCube, which included the Metal Gear Solid remake, and the award-winning Eternal Darkness. And after Microsoft bought them up, they began to drift. Their big plans for a trilogy of games called "Too Human" went belly-up, after the first entry fell flat. I'm not even sure what they're currently working on. MS just sucks the life out of good companies.
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[PacmanPlush]

Wreck wrote:

Sad as it may sound, I don't really want anything new from Rare. Think about PD Zero and Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts. Both games were made years after finding their first (or second) success, created by a totally different team of developers. What happens? That old magic just doesn't spark.

This is important to consider. In fact, much of the talent that produced our favourite Rare titles departed even before their purchase by Microsoft. While we think of GoldenEye and Perfect Dark as being developed by the same team (and this is pretty much true), many of the major developers left about two years into PD's three year development period to form Free Radical Design. Among them were Karl Hilton, who led the art design, modelling, and level design on both GE and PD; David Doak, who was responsible for writing and design on both games; Steve Ellis, lead developer on both games; and Graeme Norgate, who did music and sound on both games. Martin Hollis, who directed GE and PD, left after 14 months of work on PD.

A lot of people seem to think that the sole fact that Rare was working for Nintendo at the time is why their games were so good. Don't get me wrong, Microsoft is definitely a major factor in why Rare is currently only doing work on Kinect titles and avatar design. But I feel that, had they never left Nintendo, they still would have become a shell of their former selves. Perhaps, had they stayed with Nintendo, they would have simply fallen apart or been merged with another first-party developer, like Retro Studios.

It's important to remember that Grabbed by the Ghoulies, Perfect Dark Zero, and Kameo: Elements of Power began development/were planned for release on the GameCube. We'll never know as history is what it is, but I honestly believe that had these games actually came out for the GC, their quality would have been the same or just marginally better than their Xbox and Xbox 360 releases.

Wreck wrote:

About the only title from their rich history that I wouldn't mind seeing a new entry for, is Killer Instinct.

The Xbox One version of KI is worth checking out. It received middling reviews, but this is largely due to the unfortunate decision to offer the game as a freemium title. Mechanically, it's quite a good fighter, and the soundtrack is incredible.

Personally, I'd like to see Rare bring the rest of its back catalogue to XBLA by way of 4J Studios. Their ports of the Banjo games and Perfect Dark are very well done, and I'd love to see Blast Corps, Jet Force Gemini, and Conker's BFD receive similar treatments.

Wreck wrote:

There's a videogame company in my city, Silicon Knights, who have a similar history. They started small, working on PC games. Had some success with a few. Later they put out some great games for GameCube, which included the Metal Gear Solid remake, and the award-winning Eternal Darkness. And after Microsoft bought them up, they began to drift. Their big plans for a trilogy of games called "Too Human" went belly-up, after the first entry fell flat. I'm not even sure what they're currently working on. MS just sucks the life out of good companies.

Silicon Knights no longer exists as of 2012. They're a bit of a different case, too--on the surface, yes, their downfall started after partnering up with Microsoft. But behind the scenes they pretty much killed themselves from the inside. If I had to draw a comparison, I'd say their flaws and missteps are more in line with the likes of 3D Realms and Gearbox. While Rare has simply shifted focus (and, let's be honest, is doing very well--I'm not a fan of their current work but the Kinect Sports titles are their best selling games in over 10 years, by a wide margin), Silicon Knights fell upon their own sword through mismanagement and misguided legal battles.

With the exception of Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, SK's flagship titles based on original IPs have consistently failed to meet deadlines and had their development restarted on new platforms. Nothing quite as bad as 3D Realms' Duke Nukem Forever, but not too far off either. It seems that without a dedicated publishing partner (as with Konami and Nintendo on Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes) they struggle to finish projects.

Like The Twin Snakes, SK's earlier GameCube title, Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem, was produced in partnership with Nintendo. It was first announced in 1999 and was planned for release on the N64. It was reworked as a launch title for the GameCube (mid-September, 2001), but the September 11th attacks forced SK to rework the game's Arabic-themed levels and characters, which had a notable impact on the game's mythology and plot. The game eventually launched in June of 2002.

Too Human began development for the PS1 after Silicon Knights released Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain in 1996. By 2000, development on the game had shifted to the GameCube. In 2005, in what seemed to be a last ditch effort to secure finance and save the project, SK sold the rights to the game to Microsoft. Development was completely restarted for the Xbox 360, and the game was to run on the newly released Unreal Engine 3. (More on this later.) Its gameplay and plot were quite different from the original plans, which indicated a rushed development schedule; despite this, the game failed to meet its first release date (winter, 2006) and was eventually released in August of 2008.

Their next game, X-Men: Destiny, was developed for Activision. From the outset, it was clear to the team tasked with working on the game that the studio heads didn't care how it turned out. A disproportionate amount of time and resources were spent on secretly developing an unannounced Eternal Darkness sequel, as well as Too Human 2. Reportedly, at one point as much as 40% of the X-Men team was pulled away to work on Eternal Darkness 2. Very little work was done on X-Men and the studio heads consistently failed to report to Activision on the game's progress, forcing Activision to go behind SK's back and release a trailer for the game that concluded with the Silicon Knights logo and a release date. SK was not prepared for this and rushed the game out to poor reviews.

There are clear parallels here between Silicon Knights' approach to X-Men and Gearbox with their Aliens: Colonial Marines game. Gearbox, under contract from Sega, spent several years "developing" Aliens while, in actuality, spending time and Sega's money on developing Borderlands 2 and completing Duke Nukem Forever, both of which were published by 2K Games. Work on Aliens was passed off to a number of external studios. Like X-Men: Destiny, Aliens received poor reviews.

The company shut down in 2012 after a legal battle with Epic Games (developers of Unreal Engine 3, which powered both Too Human and X-Men: Destiny) left them bankrupt. During the development of Too Human, SK sued Epic Games, claiming that Epic was sabotaging companies that licenced UE3 by failing to supply integral components and code. SK stated that Epic considered much of UE3's promised feature set to be part of their own flagship title, Gears of War, rather than the engine itself, and thus were not included in the materials supplied to licensors. In 2012, SK lost their case as well as a countersuit from Epic Games. They were forced to destroy all unsold copies of Too Human and X-Men: Destiny--this killed SK and delivered a blow to Activision and Marvel as well, since X-Men: Destiny was barely a year old by this point. Fortunately the game was pretty bad so they didn't exactly lose a stellar product.
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[Sogun]

Wow, what an interesting amount of info you are writing guys. Kerr Avon, that article is priceless!

I agree with PacmanPlush regarding Rare loosing its magic when they were yet developing for Nintendo 64. Maybe only Perfect Dark exceeded the expectations. Some games like Jet Force Gemini and Conker had very good ideas but they were far from being masterpieces; Donkey Kong 64 was a dissapointment along with Star Fox Adventures (I think same with Banjo Tooie, but I haven't played this series), and Mickey's Speedway USA has been long forgoten.

How lots of great developers in the past have dissapeared or are a shadow of what they once were has a lot of explanations, but probably the main reason is the amount of money you need to create a game nowadays.
For example, take a look to the Gran Turismo games. Back in the PS1 era one modeler was able to produce a car in a short amount of time (let's say one day). In PS2 it took more time (let's say three days), so they hired more people (more money) in order to finish the game in a reasonable amount of time. In PS3 it took even more time (let's say a week), so more people needed to be hired. Now, not only did the amount of time needed to model a car increased, but the amount of cars and tracks the game had also increased. In ten years, the Gran Turismo team probably grew x10 times. They were able to suceed because the Gran Turismo series sold more than 10 millions per game, and they were able to reuse part of the content for sequels on the same console. However, they had to release Prologue versions for Gran Turismo 4 and 5 titles because development was taking too long and they needed income. What happened after Gran Turismo 5? Since the game didn't sell as much as it needed (it sold 10 million copies!!), they rushed a Gran Turismo 6 and shut down the online for the 5th in a desperate way to make users buy the new one. If even a succesful series like Gran Turismo is struggling nowadays, then think about all the others!
This business has gone nuts.

[mistamontiel]

AGREED. I loooove(d) GT series. Heck I JUST got a PS3 late 2012, I had GT5 here since launch since forever preordered.

It's really the ONLY game I mess with 7th gen. So I take it online like five times and now they pull the plug.

F*ck the industry 7th gen fuct it all up
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[MRKane]

Can I just say that it's been a fantastic digest so far guys! If you've ever heard the idea "that you have to run as fast as you can to stay where you are" if there's one theme I see repeated again and again it's that failed projects seem to be made for the current situation...not what's going to happen.

Pertaining to development time, I think the growth of middleware solutions (such a CryTech, Unreal Engine, Unity and even the quickly growing Fabric Engine) are thriving only because things have got so difficult for developers. TurboSquid is another example of growth out of necessity, and we might see more of these "supplementary industries" evolving to fill development shortcomings. We're constantly faced with the question of building something ourselves, or buying and modifying an asset that someone else has developed...but this is where things get different - there's a funny type of pride amongst people where they won't "lower" themselves to using someone else's product. We'll sometimes on-sell things that are developed in-house, but you'd be amazed how much that happens.

In saying that, could you imagine a world where every game company just rolled out games with the same assets? They'd all look the same, play the same, sound the same and they'd all be...hang on...they'd all be gunmetal grey or crap brown...ok I think I don't have a point to make here lol
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No Mr. Bond, I expect you to be re-coded!

[Kerr Avon]

PacmanPlush, that's very interesting, thanks for sharing it. I've not yet played Eternal Darkness, but everyone says it's a masterpiece, and I do have the game, and I intend to get around to playing it one day (my backlog is huge, which is just as well, as most modern games are so disappointing, I think).

Sogun wrote:

Maybe only Perfect Dark exceeded the expectations. Some games like Jet Force Gemini and Conker had very good ideas but they were far from being masterpieces

* Breathes into a paper bag *

CBFD is a classic! As is JFG!!!

Alright, so it's all down to opinion, fair enough. And I haven't played through DK64 or Banjo Tooie long enough to assess them properly, but from what I saw they were great, and most people seem to agree that they are both very good indeed. Though I didn't play DK64 long enough to get bored with the collecting, which I hear can be a major problem with the game.

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How lots of great developers in the past have dissapeared or are a shadow of what they once were has a lot of explanations, but probably the main reason is the amount of money you need to create a game nowadays.

Agreed. It takes so much time, money and manpower to make a modern game (at least on consoles and PC, I don't know about hand-held), partly because every modern game (if it's commercial, not indie) has to have amazingly detailed graphics, tons of voice actors, all sorts of details, etc. It all adds up, especially in cost, and so we have fewer games being released now than since the early 1980s. Up until a few years ago, almost every major or fairly successful film released by Hollywood had a tie-in game, but nowadays that hardly happens. It's not a huge loss in most cases, as tie-ins tended to be rubbish, but even so, it's still a sign of how things have changed. And of course some tie-ins were great (Goldeneye, Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher's Bay, Spiderman 2, etc).

I wish games would re-use resources from other games, as that would save time and money. I mean, look at all the detail and data in games like GTA IV, GTA V, inFamous 1 and 2, Bioshock 1 and 2, etc. Other games could be set in their game worlds, using the existing data (but modified slightly where necessary for the purposes of the new game), which would instantly complete most of the design/modelling/graphical work for the new game. Imagine an RPG set in Rapture (Bioshock 1 and 2's world), something with the depth of System Shock 2 but with Raptures levels (original, modified, and some new). It would be fantastic.

Or games from third party companies set in the GTA worlds. The companies could concentrate on creating new missions, new street races, and maybe adding some new building interiors, and maybe (if the game/storyline necessitates it) making some new buildings and city structures. Or even write non-GTA style games, but set them in the GTA worlds, such as maybe first person shooters, or parkour themed games, where you have to get from A to B as quickly as possible with hazards including the usual GTA motor traffic. Or considering how every fifth game released within the past few years seems to be a zombie game, then why not an open world survival game set after a zombie outbreak. Granted, there are a few of those games now, but they might have been better (or more detailed, or quicker to make) if they'd have been set in GTA IV's version of Liberty City.

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This business has gone nuts.

Yes.

[Sogun]

Kerr Avon wrote:

* Breathes into a paper bag * CBFD is a classic! As is JFG!!!

Haha. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed JFG a lot and had fun with Conker and DK64 too. They are good games, very good indeed. But they have some flaws you don't see in other Rare titles.

JFG has control issues. While aiming the crosshair is very sensitive and the camera/semitransparent character doesn't work well. There's a chapter in Conker that uses a similar control scheme, but the camera is just like in Resident Evil 4! They should have used that in JFG. Also, in JFG the characters slide a lot, so it's hard to jump or stop where you want. Another issue is the tribal collection: you should add this for a 100% reward and not as a mandatory objective. And the multi deathmatch was bad: horrible camera, monotonous maps and killing each other took to long.
Even with all those problems I consider JFG a very recommendable game. The level design, soundtrack, enemy AI, hard bosses and variety of weapons is outstanding. It's probably top 10-15 on the console

I don't have such as good impressions for Conker, though. It's like a mix of very good ideas, humor and parodies but poorly executed at times. Sometimes the game is very cryptic and it's hard to know what to do. Graphically it's a beast, but it suffers too much from slowdowns even for a N64 game (I played PAL, so perhaps it's better in NTSC). The best part are the last three or four chapters. Truly awesome part. Too bad it ended drastically. I haven't played multi, but it looks very promising with lots of original modes. I consider this one top 20-25 on the console? (hard to tell actually). It's very unique so I would recommend it too.

I think the big issue with DK64 is that it has only 6 levels plus the final one (if I recall correctly) and you are going to repeat them hundreds of times. The first levels are very good looking, but I don't have very good memories of the last ones. Levels are big and the kongs are slow to it just gets too tedious. And the final level was some kind of time attack depending of the amount of a certain item you had collected. I remember not trying to complete it because I thought I didn't have enough time; so I forced myself to go into the less appealing levels in order to find more objects that gave me more time. I haven't played Banjo games but I have the impression that at least the first one is more enjoyable than DK64 because it has more compact levels and in bigger numbers. My favourite is Mario 64. I probably consider DK64 lower than top-30.

Anyway, everybody has his/her own criteria.

[Kerr Avon]

Sogun wrote:

Kerr Avon wrote: * Breathes into a paper bag * CBFD is a classic! As is JFG!!! Haha. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed JFG a lot and had fun with Conker and DK64 too. They are good games, very good indeed. But they have some flaws you don't see in other Rare titles. JFG has control issues. While aiming the crosshair is very sensitive and the camera/semitransparent character doesn't work well. There's a chapter in Conker that uses a similar control scheme, but the camera is just like in Resident Evil 4! They should have used that in JFG. Also, in JFG the characters slide a lot, so it's hard to jump or stop where you want. Another issue is the tribal collection: you should add this for a 100% reward and not as a mandatory objective. And the multi deathmatch was bad: horrible camera, monotonous maps and killing each other took to long. Even with all those problems I consider JFG a very recommendable game. The level design, soundtrack, enemy AI, hard bosses and variety of weapons is outstanding. It's probably top 10-15 on the console

I agree with all your criticisms, actually. The controls were not nearly user definable enough and having two different styles, both of which that you had to use, depending on if you were moving or aiming, was bafflingly stupid. Rare's games were presumably very well tested (since they were mostly so enjoyable and bug free) so surely the testers should have said "It's no fun having to use two seperate control styles, please change it so the user can just use one style, to make it consistant". They knew from Goldeneye that one control style worked fine for action games (though of course they should still have let the user choose to use either the analogue stick to move OR the analogue stick to move, as in Goldeneye.

And yes, collecting every single Tribal wasn't fun... And I don't remember the multiplayer much at all, so it probably wasn't great (plus I'm sure it didn't have bots, which meant if my mates didn't like the game then I wouldn't get to play it). But I do think that the game (single player at least) surmounted all of these problems to create a very good game indeed.

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I don't have such as good impressions for Conker, though. It's like a mix of very good ideas, humor and parodies but poorly executed at times. Sometimes the game is very cryptic and it's hard to know what to do. Graphically it's a beast, but it suffers too much from slowdowns even for a N64 game (I played PAL, so perhaps it's better in NTSC). The best part are the last three or four chapters. Truly awesome part. Too bad it ended drastically. I haven't played multi, but it looks very promising with lots of original modes. I consider this one top 20-25 on the console? (hard to tell actually). It's very unique so I would recommend it too.

I agree and disagree here. Yes, some of the jokes and scenes weren't funny, but at other times they were hilarious, and I still think CBFD is the funniest non-adventure (i.e. Monkey Island, Day of the Tentacle, etc) game I've ever played. I don't remember any of the parts being cryptic, but I'm so used to the levels that I've no doubt forgotten if I did have trouble and have to resort to trial and error. The difficulty does spike badly in some areas though, which is a fault (though I think the difficulty would only be really problematic to someone who was not an experienced gamer) and I think the game should have had a skill level setting.

I haven't noticed any slow down, but I personally never do unless it's really bad (I'm not observant, and I'm used to low frame-rates as I play so many games on older machines).

And in multiplayer there are seven different modes, all with bots (computer controlled players to play against), and some of the modes are *fantastic*. Beach, and Heist, are really good, but War: Colours is by far my favourite - it's sort of like Team Fortress, but you decide your class by the weapon you choose, so you can change your 'class' by picking up a different weapon (you can only carry one weapon, and when you pick up a new one then you lose the old one) - for example if you have the Katana (sword) then you can jump higher, fall farther without getting hurt, and don't appear on the enemies weapons. If you have the bazooka then you move slower, etc. It only has one map, and one objective (capture the flag), so altogether it doesn't sound too great. But I've probably spent more time just playing this one game mode, against the (great) bots, than I've spent playing most of my other games put together. War: Colours really is fantastic, and to me it's *much* better than the single player mode - the single player mode is a great experience to play through once and see and hear all the jokes, but the fun level goes up and down as you progress through the game, and to me it lacks replayability. Whereas War: Colours just NEVER gets boring, I find.

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I think the big issue with DK64 is that it has only 6 levels plus the final one (if I recall correctly) and you are going to repeat them hundreds of times. The first levels are very good looking, but I don't have very good memories of the last ones. Levels are big and the kongs are slow to it just gets too tedious. And the final level was some kind of time attack depending of the amount of a certain item you had collected. I remember not trying to complete it because I thought I didn't have enough time; so I forced myself to go into the less appealing levels in order to find more objects that gave me more time. I haven't played Banjo games but I have the impression that at least the first one is more enjoyable than DK64 because it has more compact levels and in bigger numbers. My favourite is Mario 64. I probably consider DK64 lower than top-30. Anyway, everybody has his/her own criteria.

I haven't completed DK64 (can't remember where I got to, I don't think it was too far) so I can't comment on it, but from what I've read, it's regarded as everything from a boring, tedious collect-athon that steals it's ideas from far better games, to a total classic that any platformer fan should play, though even the people who say the latter also say DK64 probably went too far with the collectables. I do love Banjo Kazooie, though, which to me is the best 3D platform game I've ever played.