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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I should have stated my configuration since that might affect the results.
Consol - PAL
GE - NTSC (unlocked via PG, also MCM stripped from PAL)

From what I have read, PAL hardware has a higher clock speed but as you found out, higher clock speeds mean less ram speed.

Trev
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

So: I've still got two bits of this at home, plus the ones that I pulled off the board that died (turns out that that board had an issue with the RCP and rust on the pins but I couldn't fix it, which is why I can't just fire it up and get you an answer): http://www.ebay.com/itm/121367725365.

So I should ask (if anyone knows) where the hell I could get some 4MB strips from that would have a lower latency. The TC59R1809HK chip boasted a latency about 43ms I think (vast improvement over the N64s standard), just I'd love to have to only solder in two chips instead of then fabricating a PCB for the expansion mounting and the full test!
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

There are no other 4MB (36Mb) chips, it was a custom density manufactured solely for the N64, Nintendo profited by selling it in the expansion pack. There is slightly more performance when implementing two RDRAM chips, as opposed to using only one big 8MB (72Mb) chip. The 16/18Mb RDRAM densities for graphics application had some success (not much), but the 64Mb density for networking and system memory never took off. The subsequent RDRAM architecture (direct RDRAM) experienced more success in computers and the PlayStation 2.

43 ms is way too high for any statistic pertaining to memory latency, unless you are referring to the refresh interval? All RDRAMs for the most part share identical timings (Rambus standard), though there may be some very minor variations in the datasheet charts pertaining to ‘timings’ or ‘AC characteristics’ since the silicon fabrication process may differ by manufacturer – this explains why some RDRAMs can tolerate a slightly faster clock or a higher voltage supply.

The higher end versions of desktop 3D graphics cards that did use RDRAM (Laguna 3D and Mpact!), utilized the 300 MHz variant of Toshiba’s TC59R1809K(-60) or LG’s ‘Low latency’ GM73V1892AH16L (the ‘low latency’ feature needs to be activated to work, no other RDRAM has this). There are quite a few graphics cards on EBay with these memory chips. I’m just not up for taking the two 36Mb chips out of my N64 and putting in four ‘low latency’ LG chips at the moment.

 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Fantastic information! Pertaining to the latency I was going from memory so can we retract that bit? Wink

So from what you're saying we've got two chips that offer lower latency, one that requires activation (so lets forget that one). This leaves TC59R1809K - I can't find a datasheet for that particular revision so does that mean it's the TC59R1809HK? Replacing chips is a hassle so I greatly appreciate your knowledge here, not to mention it's interesting that we may still have an approach to explore!

Thoughts?
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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I typed the chip p/n wrong, I meant to say "TC59R1809HK-60", there is no mention of this having the ‘low latency’ feature (there is no datasheet for this exact speed grade either), it is likely just another regular RDRAM. LG has two models for ‘low latency’ RDRAM: GM73V1892H-16L and GM73V1892AH-16L, I have no clue as to what the extra ‘A’ means on the latter p/n (wishful thinking: 'automatic' Very Happy ), LG does not elaborate on it.

Non-Nintendo 3rd party expansion packs allow for two RDRAMs to be mounted – in one point a few years back I even had 16 MB of RDRAM in my N64 just to quench my curiosity, no acts of wizardry were witnessed during gameplay.
 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I was sure I pulled up a datasheet that had it, but it was a long time ago and I cannot find it now either. Without verification I'm inclined to consign this to folly I'm afraid as I don't want to kill another unit. It's a shame because we'd all like a bit of a way to boost things past Nintendos dollar pinching solution.

Back to trying to find the Rom clock timing to synchronise with an overclock I suppose.

As a sideways note: what was the name of the expansion pack that had two chips? Just asking as I wished I had it years ago for stuff like this!
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 PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I got two expansion packs when I started messing with N64 clocks a few years ago, one was branded Retrobit or Super Retro 64 (easy to find), the other was Pelican (quite rare nowadays). Both have two RDRAM chips, but I found Pelican’s design a bit more stable.
 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Cheers! Well there is that if we do find some chips that aren't standard with the latency. Didn't the iQue have better RAM to improve speed?
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 PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I transplanted two LG “low latency” chips onto my N64 from a vintage non-functional video card (not the one pictured previously). I have only tampered with some core timings and tested clock stability, I have not yet activated the ‘low latency’ feature.
These LG chips are rated to operate at 300 MHz, though due to the hardware setup on the previous video card, they could operate stably even up to +370 MHz. This N64 of mine does not like anything above 312 MHz (RCP 78.2 MHz).
I tested out a bit of SOTE with its debug display, I would like to get Goldeneye setup eventually, and any other games that show display stats – I only know of these two. I’m not expecting any performance improvement, Rambus scales better with clock. At least for SOTE, two 2MB chips seem to slightly outperform one or two 4MB chips by a tad bit, contrary to having two 4MB chips on the motherboard.

 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Way to get the ball rolling, and sharp soldering work there! I've been tied up with real-life (which did include re-furbishing a NES and doing a few mods on it) but otherwise my soldering iron has been pretty cold.

I wait with interest to see what becomes of this - we really could be on the edge of something cool!
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I’ve only tested SOTE so far, and I’ve activated the ‘low latency’ feature as well as set the RDRAM core timings as specified in the datasheet – this all done inside the SOTE ROM. I am also cross testing with another N64 that is using an earlier RDRAM revision (RDRAM18-NUS A), it seems the same core timings on the LG datasheet may appear to work on practically any RDRAM chip, so nothing special there, and the RCP seems able to cope with the ‘low latency’ (AckDis) feature activated on the RDRAMs. I would add that during boot up, Nintendo appears to set the first RDRAM chip to be slightly faster than others.

I’d say the results are a bit on the mixed side for SOTE, but I am tempted to say that two 2MB chips may give a tiny edge over one or two 4MB chips (a very tiny edge at best) – if a game uses/requires the expansion pack and can reveal system stats like SOTE and GE, I would be interested in testing.

LG and NEC RDRAM datasheets put it quite simply, when the RDRAM needs to fetch data that isn’t already in its caches (sense amplifiers), it can take several hundred ns to reply data to the RCP, in worst case scenarios it can take at least ~900 ns or more – these LG RDRAMs would ideally bring this down to at least ~600 ns or more. If DMA transactions are already slow inside the RCP, then it is a good bet that the combination of both the RDRAM and RCP are crippling the console’s overall performance.
 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'll be interested to see what numbers you get out of the high-system games such as Perfect Dark (which has the fantastic MCM debug information). Now that we've a verified system there's a wealth of information and discovery here in my opinion!

Pertaining to the latency theory, loosening the bottleneck on the RCP was the general idea behind doing this, although there are technically very few games upon which it is the actual bottle neck (mainly why I pick PD as pretty much the worst game for it...)

Keep the details coming in! I'm really keen to hear them!
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Unfortunatly PD striped the MCM before release in any region.

The MCM in its most powerfull state is NTSC GE however the MCM is incomplete to a certian degree in all builds without the devkit. We know rare used SGI machines which means they used the INDY emulator board which by the looks of it went inside the machine.

Using the dev HW certian outputs were displayed on the SGI monitor hence they dont work on N64.

But, as far as we are concerned the Display Speed works fine and its the most importiant really.
The only one Id love hacked to output to on-screen debug would be the ram use one.

Trev
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Last edited by Trevor on Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
 
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eb1560
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 PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I tweaked a bit more with SOTE, I think I sorted out the mixed results. The SOTE debug menu and debug display are very limited in stats (framerate counter only shows even numbers), but it gives the user immediate in-game control of AA and some other neat features. In the start of the second Hoth mission (no movement), both two 4 MB chips and two 2 MB chips would output 14 fps consistently. When disabling AA, the 4 MB chips keep jumping between 14 to 16 fps, but the two 2MB chips would settle at 16 fps and momentarily dip down to 14 fps – I found that when tightening the RDRAM and cartridge bus timings, the game would dish out 16 fps consistently and nothing less (didn’t happen with 4MB chips). This improvement in framerate becomes more apparent in scenes that are normally rendered at 20 fps or slightly higher. Not a huge improvement, but I’ll take it – maybe someone could try reproducing this.

GE is next when I have a bit more free time. I am not aware of the display speed feature being activated in-game, so I would need to hack the ROM? Can the game be patched to turn off VI AA? I don’t have stats for 4MB chips, so I can only speak for results with two 2 MB chips.

There will be some variation from console to console, I guess I could post the portions of code I modified on a ROM’s bootstrap for others to test out on their own 64drive or Everdrive?
 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I'm still glued to this! (actually ordered some of the Ultra-hdmi from the last batch, but that's a different story).

Pertaining to GE, yes there is a rom patch to turn off AA. As it turns out there was quite a bit going on there (and our Zoinkity was kind of the spearhead on this one...), but the best site for this is probably here: http://retrorgb.com/n64blur.html

That said, I'll still be checking this thread every morning!
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