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Datadyne carpet missing with Project64 & Glide...WTF
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AL64inthedark
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:39 am    Post subject: Datadyne carpet missing with Project64 & Glide...WTF Reply with quote Back to top


On the left is what I got, on the right is what should be displayed, as you know it.



I wanted to start learning doing maps. I figured I better learn the basics by modifying existing levels. I wanted to start by retexturing Datadyne HQ so I changed the vertices colors. I've changed a part of the carpet to be orange, another one gray, and try if I can make the metal bar on the left pillar something more "copper" colored.

I loaded my new rom (well I missed something since there's no orange or gray part). But that's not the issue.

It made me realize I don't diplay the carpet lol. I played hours of PD like this and never realized. Plus it's one of the mission I'm doing the most Very Happy

Does someone has a clue about what's wrong by any chance ?
I'm wondering why there's another texture displayed. Of course, this happen even on the original unmodified rom.

Why you not displayed 1D721A2 ?
 
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

It may be one of those instances where Rare draws two different textures at the same place. This is also noticeable in the Combat Simulator map Grid. Some walls use two images, but certain emulator plugins have issues with displaying them both. That's probably the case with the carpet, but I can't say for certain without seeing room files.
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 PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SubDrag may explain it better, but I think the issue with that texture is that is using what the Editor calls "Detail texture".

Grid pillars also use detail textures. You can also find detail textures in GE, in Surface trees and Depot floor.

A Detail texture means there are two textures in the same tri. You have one base texture (I guess the 1D721A2 you are refering to) and then another texture (probably some short of "dirt" pattern) overlapping. These textures can have different UVs, so you can simulate bigger textures if you know what you are doing.

Unfortunately, details textures is something that emulators can't display correctly at the moment. Even the Editor doesn't display them correctly. I think emulators display the overlapping texture while Editor displays the base texture. You can only see detail textures correctly on the real console.

There's a workaround for this, thoug, that I used in my last Kakariko Village update. Instead of two textures in one tri, you double the tris, texture each layer with a different image and apply some alpha transparency to the overlapping texture. You also have to check the topflag flag in Editor for the overlapping texture, so it doesn't flicker ingame. This trick should add a little lag since you have more geometry on screen, but if it's done in a few tris then there shouldn't be any framedrops.
Maybe detail textures add a little lag too, compared to one-layer textures, but I don't know.

Also, you won't be able to change the metal bar on the pillar by shading it. It's an env map texture, so it's using the vertex RGB to calculate the env map angles. You'll need to change the texture, probably with one with the same size.
 
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 PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The flags for detail textures in PD and GE microcodes are inverted compared to the microcodes they're based on. They display the detail texture with higher priority than the actual texture.

It's a bug in Glide. They read the flags as though they were any other game in the library. It might be a good idea to fuss about this to the Glide project.

+_+

A detail textures normally kick in at a close distance. It's a workaround for textures that require a high degree of relief (like stone texture, or grass). The idea is that from afar you can't see this detail or the detail would get...busy. You might also want to use a smaller texture or one that fits within tmem and the detail prevents this.

At a near distance a seperate texture is mapped at double or quaduple the repeat rate of the initial texture. Until then the detail is not computed. I believe it's applied in an additive way in tmem, so you might wind up with color-shifting (probably why they're almost all B/W images).

Glide does implement detail maps for other microcodes. GE and PD are "special".
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AL64inthedark
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks you very much, every one of you.
You really gives interesting answers.

About the metal bar, I was wondering if changing colors had any influence to the visual. I still find it hard to understand how the artist came up with this sphere texture to gives them that effect ^^

I really need to play on console again to see how detail texture render on it.
I was never aware there was detail texture on N64 actually.
 
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 PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Datadyne carpet missing with Project64 & Glide...WTF Reply with quote Back to top

AL64inthedark wrote:
It made me realize I don't diplay the carpet lol. I played hours of PD like this and never realized. Plus it's one of the mission I'm doing the most Very Happy

Does someone has a clue about what's wrong by any chance ?
I'm wondering why there's another texture displayed. Of course, this happen even on the original unmodified rom.


Try using Jabos plugin with PD. I think it emulates it more accurately
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AL64inthedark
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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Well I can't seem to enable the lights effects on Jabo and there's quite a few visual effects that are wrong. Only thing to me that is better with it is that the carpet is displayed correctly.

At least now I know what is wrong.
 
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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I submitted the bug again to the new Glide project. There's a pretty good chance it will get in. Not sure what the ETA is on the general release of the plugin, but it will also have the framebuffer effects used for the camspy.
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 PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, he should definitely include that, things look very odd without it. Out of curiosity, did any other N64 games besides GE and PD use detail mapping? I'm sure they did, I'm just not aware of it, because it doesn't jump out unless you look for it or see texturing.
 
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I only can think of the two Zelda games using detail textures in some grass floors (like Kakariko Village, Hyrule Fields or Kokiry Forest).
I even remember one of the multiple Zelda Editors out there being able to work with detail textures. I don't remember the name, but I'll look foor it later and post the image here.

Probably Conker and the Banjo games use them too since they have very good texturing, but I dont' remember anything specific.

EDIT:
I''ve found the Zelda Editor. It's called SharpOcarina and here you can see when Detail Textures was implemented (xdaniel calls it multi-texturing):
https://www.the-gcn.com/topic/675-sharpocarina-zelda-oot-scene-development-system/?p=18241
Ack, it seems you need to be registered to enter the forums. Here is the original post:
xdaniel wrote:
New original SharpOcarina build v0.6/r17: http://code.google.c...Ocarina-v06.rar

Changelog since r15:

r16: Trying to get back to SO; finally added triangulation code by marshallh, added check for valid texture image formats in .obj loader, fixed bug that prevented correct manual input of collision polygon type data...
r17: Added partial and experimental support for multi-texturing, added option to force texture conversion into 16-bit RGBA textures, updated ReadMe.txt and upped version number in preparation for new build

Multi-texturing support is ~2 hours old and rather rudimentary. It works, but setting it up is somewhat difficult and not that user-friendly... I'll see about posting an example or something later. Also, please read the Readme, there's some important information about that.

EDIT: Alright, some usage notes on multi-texturing in v0.6. First of all, the important piece of information in the Readme I mentioned, seeing how no one actually reads that anyway:

A few more notes about multi-texturing: This feature is pretty experimental and (admittedly) rather badly implemented, perhaps even more so than the rest of the program. In addition, the combiner setup that is currently used for this - the same that ex. the grass in Hyrule Field and other areas uses - depends on proper Environment Alpha being supplied by the game. This has only been verified to be the case when overwriting scene numbers that already had multi-texturing (ex. Kakariko Village, scene number 82). Other scenes, like SharpOcarina's default Sasatest, 108, do not appear to supply the correct data for this. This can -probably- be changed by modifying the scene table, but, at the time of this writing, this hadn't be tested yet.

Next up, an example. Multi-texturing is group-based, like pretty much everything else in this regard in SO, so make sure your grass or whatever is a group of its own. Select your group on the "Rooms" tab, then have a look at the two new options at the tab's bottom. "Multitexture Material" is the material that gets added to the base texture, the scaling of which is controlled by the "Shift S/T" options below it. Values of zero are the default, which means that no scaling is applied and ex. two textures of 32x32 pixels are drawn on top of each other in a 1:1 ratio. Setting each value to 1 doubles the virtual size of the overlayed texture, so that it covers four of the underlying textures. I think this image illustrates it well:

http://i.imgur.com/JvfCR.png

Here, the "2" is the base texture as seen in SketchUp, SO's preview, etc., while the "1" is the texture overlayed via the N64's color combiner. See how the "1" covers four "2"s? That's what I was trying to say. It also works in the opposite direction, so if you set the "Shift S/T" values to ex. -1, you'll have 4 "1" textures covering a single "2":

http://i.imgur.com/0pwn4.png

(Well, technically they aren't drawn on top of each other and rather are being mixed, but I simplified it for the sake of explanation)

Also, note that the 3D preview in SO does not actually support multi-texturing. As it's just a simple .obj viewer, it isn't capable of combiner emulation, so you have to mess around a bit and maybe import the map a few times until the settings are right for you. In addition, the whole thing is pretty rudimentary, so there's no fancy material browser (like the rewrite is going to have), which means you need to select the texture to be mixed in by name. Just give your textures descriptive names - unlike my "texture_0x0201AB98_fmt0x10" for example - and it'll be fine.

Anything else I wanted to say... I don't think so. Try the feature out, tell me what works (hopefully everything) and what doesn't (hopefully nothing [Smile] ), basically: make some grass!

EDIT 2: Been messing around a bit myself. Texture mapping isn't perfect - probably since I cut up and moved around an already textured surface - but it's something:

http://i.imgur.com/bODMN.png
 
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 PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Fix the URL to SharpO ? ;]
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, sorry. I didn't notice that.

https://code.google.com/p/sharpocarina/downloads/list?can=1&q=

If you are interested in Zelda hacking you'd better visit https://www.the-gcn.com/ , register and look for help in their forums.
But I warn you that they are even less active than us, hehe. There are a few hacks in development, but they are mostly one-man projects and most of them lead nowhere. Sad
 
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Other games used detail textures, but the GE/PD microcodes use them in the opposite way. Even though they were based on existing microcode variants, they were modified somewhat and handle things a little differently than the others.

Another offbeat one, found yesterday by chance, is 40 Winks.

As for a list, it's unlikely anyone ever made one. The only really sane way would be to watch the commands sent to the RSP for a playthrough of virtually every title.
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 PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks Sogun, that's interesting information.

One of the first thing I'd like to try when I'll start mapping, is that if you can do something more than use textures like this as details texture.


Considering the low resolution of textures I doubt about it, but maybe no actually...
 
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 PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I think you can use any kind of texture, actually. You are not limited by size or colors (well, within the 4KB limit).

The only problem is that if textures are too big and UVs are big too (so the texture on screen occupies a very small part of it) it won't show in all its glory and you will only be able to see a blurry downgraded version of it, at least on console. Emulators with higher resolutions and their own texture filters won't have this issue.

I haven't tried detail textures, but I think SubDrag is using a 64x64x4 greyscaled in GoldFinger 64. What I tried was a trick that managed a similar effect in exchange of doubling the triangles for those textures, as I explained before. I'll show you how it was done.

Kakariko Village grassy floors evolution:
-At first they looked like this (sorry, couldn't find a better pic):
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z345/Sogunesp/Kakakikoportalbehavior2.jpg
-I was using one texture per floor triangle at that time. What later I'd use as 'base' texture.

this one and a darker version of it that I haven't uploaded.

-Later, when SubDrag told me about topflag and alpha textures (I think he also included detail textures in Editor by that time) I thought of a way to be more accurate to the original game.
I doubled the floor triangles, set the second layer to secondary group and applied alpha and topflag to those tris, so they would render above the original floor.
I used this texture as """detail texture""" for the light grass



and this other texture as """detail texture""" for the dark grass



-The final outcome looked like this:
http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z345/Sogunesp/GEKakarikograsstopflaghint_zps201d368f.png


I don't think there's any difference with the real detail textures, but I needed to do it like this so it would show on emulators.
 
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