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Overclocking: a review
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:07 am    Post subject: Overclocking: a review Reply with quote Back to top

So it's been a while since I've done this and the key thing I noted before I did is that nobody had really put forward a list of which games benefit from doing so, or which ones "clock up" with the multiplier. Ive got most pal releases and have been giving things a decent test and here's the first half (or so).

Generally any game that already has a decent frame rate doesn't benifit from overclocking, and pretty much all of them didn't clock up so in the end the play experience was the same as normal.

Anything acclaim didn't clock up, this lead to some very happy surprises with the likes of Turok 2 and 3 becoming a slick highly playable games, and XG2 also benefited, as did 1080.

Conkers Bad Fur Day, Mario 64, and Jet Force Gemini both operated at normal speeds! Not that JFG had many problems, by my opinion, to start with but Conkers got slow in places.

Definite win with Mario Kart and I can't wait to give it a heavy 4 player match.

And I know you all want to know about Zelda: well they've both got a frame cap which means that they never seem to exceed 20 FPS - of course with the overclocking they don't slow down either. Would be nice if it could be used to skip through the cut scenes we've all seen before!

The clock ups (so far):
Goldeneye
Perfect dark
Beetle adventure racing

However: perfect dark with the slow motion cheat on was a dream to play and honestly felt about 10 times better, on the 2x overclocking and left me thinking "I wonder if we can change the slow motion factor to fix this? Because THIS alone is totally worth it!"

if there's any that you want to specifically know about don't hesitate to ask Smile
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Last edited by MRKane on Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:06 am; edited 2 times in total
 
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EternallyAries
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 PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

You probably already have this on your list. But would love to see what Super Mario 64 would be like over clocked. It would be quite interesting what it would look like as the game does have it's moments where it slows down quite, well lets just go with horrible frame rate. Laughing
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Small bump that I've updated the list with three key wins:
Mario 64 and both Zelda games have frame caps so don't ramp up the speed meaning they're playable when overclocked and don't seem to suffer as much "framyness" in some of the consumptive areas.
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Thats all good news except for the Rare games...

So, to overclock correctly we need a way to slow down the rare games, hopefully without waisting a cheat Razz

Did you make any more progress on RAM or RCP?

trev
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

All and all there weren't many games that sped up - I'd call overclocking quite a success to be honest Smile

I spent ages looking for suitable RAM (and still do) but can't find any 4m x 9 RDRAM chips - they're just too old, and I couldn't find any expansion packs that had 2 2mb ram chips in them to do the full test.

As for the Rare games - I'm still bashing my head against the wall with this one (but still dead determined). I do know that PistolGrip made a modification to 1964 that allowed for PD and GE to run at 60fps without speeding up (am following that up slowly), and I'm pretty sure Zoinkity gave me the answer in a different thread but for the life of me I'm not smart enough to figure it out lol.

Pertaining to the RCP: I read about overclocking it in a few of the other forums and looked at the results - then took it back to the tech side of things, eventually decided that I had no real way of solving a the issues they were getting, plus I'm running out of money (N64s are expensive!) so might have to come back to that one lol.
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

So probably the last update regarding this (unless something really amazing shows up) are the end results - the consoles themselves.

So the first one with the lighting setup. I put heatsyncs all through this one instead of using the base system, and mounted a small graphics card fan up top.


Switches mounted on the side, and a bit of general purpose paint thinner removed the inside off the emblem, allowing me to replace it with a printed one (if anyone wonders about the Ultra 64 images that have been going around - it really is that simple).


I wanted something more durable for the second one as I found that the metal shielding actually really went a long way in regards to preserving image and sound quality during runtime. The side effect of mounting the fan on top of the shield (well perforated so it was a heatsync) is that you get a "pizaow" through audio when you power down. The image is of it running with both switches on (which doesn't work but looks cool!) and there's only just enough room to fit everything into it.


This machine was supposed to be for resale but that idea fell through when I blew up the power supply and the cost of this went through the roof by the time I was finished. I went overboard with the paint job and cut out a decal set of characters and painted them in. It didn't come up well as the paint kept cracking despite my best efforts so had to be sanded and smoothed back again and again. it mutilated poor Johanna.


Using a DPDT switch I arranged the lighting to be different colours when overclocked to different levels. Not really necessary but it really helps assure the user what the machine is doing. Also, it's cool. This is the 1.5X overclock and blue is the 2X level. Standard running is plain white lights.



Ironically the main use this masterpiece gets it playing Gauntlet Legends as prolonged play on an uncooled N64 will usually result in an overheat within an hour or so, but damn does it look good while doing so.
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AL64inthedark
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Looks so very **** good. Nice job.
 
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah wow, those look nice.

When you say 1.5x, 2x and normal... what exactly do you mean?

The Default 'Normal' CPU clock for the N64 is 93MHz (1.5x64MHz)

Remembering other conversations on here and other places I think that what you really mean is 'underclocking' a default N64 since 2x is literly 2x64 and not 2x93, and 1.5 is literly normal and not 1.5x93.

Im loving the PD N logo.


When you said you had a technichal look at the problems of RCP overclocking, did you find anything at all?


It might be that we have to face it and say that Nintendo got all the clocks at optimal performance and nothing we can do will make it any better...

The bulk of the problems lie within the RCP... and theres not a lot we can do about that... (TMEM for 1 example)

Trev
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

That PD "N" Logo is really cool. I could totally see a Perfect Dark inspired theme paint job with that included.

The gold is also nice. I can't quite make out all of the characters, but most of them have a strong enough outline to know who they are. Might be easier in person to see the others.
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

The problem with overclocking the RCP is that it seems to govern the ram clock, which somehow seems to then govern the CPU clock so taking up the RCP essentially just overclocks everything so it all runs faster (at least in my experience). There were also video problems and after just a little of messing around one more dead N64 Sad

What I mean by 1.5 and 2x overlock is that two pins on the CPU are actually set to multipliers (it's an oldschool processor thing) so it increases the cycles accordingly. I'm not totally sure if the MHz actually changes as many games maintain normal speed, although games that appear to pull their timings off the RCP all play faster - naturally these are the ones you want to play. I'm still trying to find a way around this, Zoinkity spoke about the clockrate, but it's possibly a PAL thing that it's being ignored. Changing the slow-motion modifier on PD is another option if I could track that down with the GS.

I was really looking for a PD paint scheme on that one! Money was the issue however so it only got a gunmetal coat and the new emblem Smile It nearly became a N64 portable but again, money. To be frank I'd be more inclined to make a compact version as it'd be easier to transport around to friends places...if you can imagine a group of grown men still playing N64 when they catch up then you'd be correct!
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

"What I mean by 1.5 and 2x overlock is that two pins on the CPU are actually set to multipliers "

Ah Yes, thats what I thought.

The multipliers multiply the CPU Input rate and make the CPU work faster than the RCP.
By default on a normal unmodified N64 the Multiplier is set to 1.5 (hence the N64s clock speed was always 93MHz in any docs)

"CPU - 93.75 MHz
RDRAM - 250 MHz(9 bit bytes at 500 M/sec)
RCP - 62.5 MHz
AI - 44.1 KHz stereo
VI -(depends on mode)
PI - 20 Meg/sec peak, 5 Meg/sec from typical slow ROMs "



"The problem with overclocking the RCP is that it seems to govern the ram clock, which somehow seems to then govern the CPU clock "

Yes, thats true, but Ive just thought of something...
If GE is tied to CPU clock, and PD stresses the RCP more than the CPU, how about overclocking the RCP 1.5x and setting the CPU to 1x (RCP Speed)
But... theres still a ram problem... doh... yeah... this line of thinking is really not working...
Ah well, all very interesting.

Trev
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Kerr Avon
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

That modded N64 does look really nice, very well done mate!

Regarding over-clocking the N64, and it's associated problems, when the cycle accurate emulator CEN64 is finished and released, can it be modded (as it is open source) so that the emulator can detect which game is loaded, and then automatically over/under/whatever-clock it's self to the game's best advantage? I'd can't see any problem with that, other than the work required to code the changes, and it would be a nice feature.

Are Project 64 or 1964 open source? If so, can't they support this feature?

On a whistful note, I wish the hardware requirements for cycle accurate N64 emulation weren't so high (though I understand why they are) - I'd love it if CEN64 could run on an open console, such as the (modded) original XBox, (modded) Wii, or that Ouya console. Even if the XBox One or PS4 were powerful enough, then we'd have to wait until (or if) the console is hacked, though it would give me a reason to buy one.
 
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Kerr Avon
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

MRKane, can I pick your brain for a moment? I know almost nothing about electronics, but if I wanted to change the power LED in my N64 from red to another colour, then is it just a case of de-soldering the original LED, and soldering a green (my favourite colour!) LED in it's place, or are there different types of LED (that use different volts/amps/etc settings), and if so, what type do I need for the N64?
 
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MRKane
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 PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

A guy called PistolGrip made a modification for 1964 that includes a few little tricks for getting PD and GE to run at a smooth 60fps on emulator. It's slightly dodgy if you're running on a computer that can't quite handle the workload but a real pleasure to play!

I'd personally love to have an emulator for the N64 that could be deployed to XBox or OUYA (might make either of them worth buying!) - I don't think it'll be far off actually as these things are getting busted open, and even Android has a pretty good beginnings of an emulator.

Pertaining to what's actually going on with the clockrate on the CPU, I've never been totally sure myself, all I know is that it pushes the CPU faster. There's a really funny wiring arrangement with the crystals on the board that doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense to me why they did it like that. On one of the Assembler forums a user did extensive tests on different clocks and found the platform was pretty durable but experienced much the same I did. If I can pick another one up cheaply I'd like to overclock the CPU by 2, and take the crystals down by the same factor to see if I can offset the overclocking but I'm not sure if it'd work as idealistically it should, but could also throw out the video signal and would create a N64 that can really only play three games.

Anyway: I'm rambling. The LED at the front is my favourite thing to mess with! You'll need a standard 3.3 volt LED in your colour of choice, or grab a white one and put some cellophane behind the diffuse bit - I recommend buying a good LED from your hardware store as there seems to be an attack on powerup that can blow any cheap ones that you may salvage from $2 shop pen lights. If you've looked at tutorials online they'll usually show doing a desolder and pulling the old one out, then doing a fancy cleanup, and then putting the new one in - but it's easier to blob a heap of solder down, pull the old one out while heating the solder blob, and then put the new one in, and THEN clean up. Or just cut the old light off and solder the new one onto the legs if you don't have solder wick etc.

All up this has been a fun journey, but I'm still determined to get PD and GE running at 60fps.
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Kerr Avon
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 PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

MRKane wrote:
A guy called PistolGrip made a modification for 1964 that includes a few little tricks for getting PD and GE to run at a smooth 60fps on emulator. It's slightly dodgy if you're running on a computer that can't quite handle the workload but a real pleasure to play!


Is that this one?

https://archive.org/details/1964-GEPD-Edition

It is very good, compared to other emulators of PD/GE. By the way, regarding the malware issue, I've been using that on and off (mostly off, I use my real N64) for a couple of years, with no sign of infection.




Quote:

I'd personally love to have an emulator for the N64 that could be deployed to XBox or OUYA (might make either of them worth buying!) - I don't think it'll be far off actually as these things are getting busted open, and even Android has a pretty good beginnings of an emulator.


I don't know about the Wii or Ouya's N64 emulators, but the original XBox (when modded) does have an N64 emulator, actually three in one, since it's one front-end with three cores (1964, Project 64, and UltraHLE), and you can change various options for each game (which core to use, how much V-RAM, whether or not the expansion pak is present, emulator specific options, etc), but due to a factor of the XBox's low power (it's a P3-733MHz machine with 64MB of total RAM, including the XBox's video RAM), and not everything related to N64 emulaion being open sourced, then the emulator (called Surreal 64) is less than ideal. Some games it runs great (as long as the right core and options are selected), other games have various glitches or are even unplayable.

It's like that with the XBox's PSX emulator. As a basic rule, 8 and 16 bit emulators for the XBox are more or less pefect, but anything higher and you come up against glitches, incompatibilities, and performance issues.

Plus Surreal 64 can lock up your XBox (just reset the XBox and it's OK), whereas I can't remember an N64 emulator ever locking up the PC. Though I've seen PCs locked up by various programs a thosusand times...




Quote:

Anyway: I'm rambling. The LED at the front is my favourite thing to mess with! You'll need a standard 3.3 volt LED in your colour of choice, or grab a white one and put some cellophane behind the diffuse bit - I recommend buying a good LED from your hardware store as there seems to be an attack on powerup that can blow any cheap ones that you may salvage from $2 shop pen lights. If you've looked at tutorials online they'll usually show doing a desolder and pulling the old one out, then doing a fancy cleanup, and then putting the new one in - but it's easier to blob a heap of solder down, pull the old one out while heating the solder blob, and then put the new one in, and THEN clean up. Or just cut the old light off and solder the new one onto the legs if you don't have solder wick etc.


OK mate, I'll do that, thanks.



Quote:

All up this has been a fun journey, but I'm still determined to get PD and GE running at 60fps.


Please keep us informed, it is very interesting to follow your progress.
 
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