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Weird behaviour when exceeding +/-32,768 coords

 
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Sogun
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 am    Post subject: Weird behaviour when exceeding +/-32,768 coords Reply with quote Back to top

This is regarding a level been made by user Garabuyo.

He was having trouble with clipping in some rooms in his custom level. The triangles stretched way too far away from where they were supposed to be.
He sent me a patch with no clipping in the areas that had trouble, so I did a quick test converting the level geometry to clipping. At first glance it worked just fine, but when I exported the changes into the rom and loaded the level again I could see the clipping triangles strecthing as he said.

I had a similar thing happening to me in the past when making very big levels that exceeded the +/-32,768 coord boundaries. In that case, the vertices that exceeded the limit changed position to a valid place, resulting in a very noticeable polygon mess (I'm talking about background triangles).

So I checked the background polygons coords and to my surprise they exceeded the limit but still rendered fine on editor, emulator and even console. That shouldn't happen. What am I missing?


EDIT

Garabuyo wants to keep his level as a surprise so I can't link you the patch or pics showing the level.

Here's an image of the vertex dialog that exceeds the limits.

 
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Carnivorous
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Depends on level scale
 
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Wreck
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 PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Is there any possibility to shift the entire level so that it fits within the valid range for both minus and positive sides? I've had to do this in GE-X for a couple maps, as the rescaling to 1.0 ended up putting it over the min/max.

One of Zka's missions, Descent, had the same issue. While the background looked fine, the clipping was broken in that area (stretched across the level). Shifting the whole map for the K7 Assignment pack corrected it.

There are options to shift BG, portals, clipping, and setup in Editor.
 
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

may I redirect you back to this thread to which you already posted in http://www.shootersforever.com/forums_message_boards/viewtopic.php?t=7635

you cannot exceed 32,767 (and if you have vertices at that distance then the player cannot ever move from 0,0,0 as doing so would push one of the vertices outside that range)

Now, what I would ask is, does the vertex co-ord use level scale (I think it does in that the "real" vertex position is multiplied by scale
eg, scale of 0.5, vtx at 32768, 0, 0
is really vtx at 16384, 0, 0

so, if Garabuyo is using a scale other than 1.0 then it should fit (again, if you have a vertex at 32768 then you are going to want a scale of at most 0.5 to allow the player to move around)

I do agree (and thought Sub already implemented?) that a warning should be presented when a vertex exceeds the limit.

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Sogun
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Carnivorous wrote:
Depends on level scale

I thought level scale wasn't taken into account when displaying the vertex coordinates in the Vertice Menu.
I looked at the level scale and it's 1.0. So real model coords are exceeding the limits.


Wreck wrote:
Is there any possibility to shift the entire level so that it fits within the valid range for both minus and positive sides?

Yes. Z coords range from -20,000 to -40,000 so the level can fit without issues.
I was asking because in the past I made a level with very big coords and the editor converted them to new coords within the limits, messing with all the geometry in the borders. I was expecting the same behaviour here. But to my surprise it even works flawlessly on console (except for clipping, which behaves like I was expecting).


Trevor wrote:
may I redirect you back to this thread to which you already posted in http://www.shootersforever.com/forums_message_boards/viewtopic.php?t=7635

you cannot exceed 32,767 (and if you have vertices at that distance then the player cannot ever move from 0,0,0 as doing so would push one of the vertices outside that range)

I remembered that topic but I didn't remember all the important details. Maybe because I had the wrong idea about how the player moves around the level for so many years and it's hard to let it out, hehe.

It seems the problem Garabuyo is having is that he is exceeding the 32,767 limit just in one of the edges (while when it happened to me I exceeded it in all directions) and the overall level isn't bigger than the "world cube", so the background can move inside the cube until it hits the border and the player isn't allowed to move further (that's why the clipping tiles get distorted).
I'm barely understanding it right now and I need to think a little further into this. Also compare it to the Alps map for GF64 and other experimental maps of my own to get the full idea.

But basically, we can make levels up to a certain size which we can walk around completely. And also we can have that same level with extra background that we can't go to. But this extra background can only be past some of the edges and not all of them.


Trevor wrote:
I do agree (and thought Sub already implemented?) that a warning should be presented when a vertex exceeds the limit.

There were several warnings while importing a model like missing rooms, not valid triangles, I think too big textures that exceed the 4kb cache, and maybe also rooms that exceed the coords limit.
I haven't used the Editor very much in the recent years but I think I relied in the Editor warnings to scale down my Holiday Island map so it could fit in Perfect Dark. Or maybe I already knew about the limit and calculated the new scale. It's been a long time since that.



Alps is centered and its limits are something around +/-29,000. I think in the very first versions of the map I could walk everywhere. Later I reduced the walkable areas but you can still climb up all the road and parts of the maountains. I'll search for a beta rom, create a new one from my beta files or make a new test map to understand thing better.
 
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Trevor
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 PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

You know what the solution is though right? just scale it, its GE after all, that's why level scale exists.

had this been PD then it would require re-modelling.

Quote:
Alps is centered and its limits are something around +/-29,000

that surely cannot be right?
Are you sure it wasn't scaled smaller?

Quote:
I thought level scale wasn't taken into account when displaying the vertex coordinates in the Vertice Menu.

it is, but in reverse (i.e. PG scales UP the level to keep bond at 180 units tall)
so, at 1.0 your limit is +/- 32767 (and this allows no movement from bond - this is why Dam is around +/-16384 to allow bond to traverse from end-to-end)
at 0.5 your limit is +/- 65535
at 0.2 your limit is +/- 163835
etc

Quote:
Maybe because I had the wrong idea about how the player moves around the level for so many years and it's hard to let it out, hehe.

same here, thats why I posted the thread Razz

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Sogun
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 PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

As I said. Knowing how Bond actually moves around the level and the implications of it shattered everything I thought about level size and level scale. I still need to understand it.

Alps was 0.2 Scale. Maybe that's why the +/-29,000 size makes sense.
 
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