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Train mp map rewrite
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bmw
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 PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Everything you've added to it now works just great.

But I think I've found a bug, and this bug led me to another suggestion....

Those blue/green/red triangles you use to mark tri boundaries, both in RGB edit mode as well as clipping mode - sometimes they're really big and completely hide the tri or verticie being modified. Would it be possible to make them semi-transparent, like when you modify an alpha value? Maybe even have it just as one of the editor's preference options where you can set their transparancy value anywhere between 00 and FF (255).

Which brings me to the possible bug. Can you have alpha values anything less than 255? I see that at least in-editor, alpha effects the transparency of the triangle but when I export the bg file using a modified verticie file which contains alpha values other than 255, these changes are NOT written to the final bg file (when I import it back to the editor, all alpha values are reset to 255). Or is alpha modding something that just plain doesn't work in-game anyways?
 
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radorn
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 PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Just my two cents about alpha, until "official" word from SubDrag.

From what I can see in rare's original levels, although the n64 hardware can do alpha, and certainly one can appreciate that when looking trough cristals and textures with transparency, one can also notice that textures don't really fully use all the potential of an 8bit alpha channel because all we see is pixels/texels that are fully transparent and others that are fully opaque (which translates perfectly to 0 and 255 alpha levels). Well, not quite that much. The opaque parts are not completelly so but I think that has more to do with how the games graphical engine works than with full use of alpha.

It'd be more correct to call it transparency rather than alpha blending because of the lack of graduality.
 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

I believe I hardcoded alpha to FF because I am unsure if this actually gets used. Me and Rare seemed to get alphas for real from the drawlists, not the vertices. In any case, I've made only output original GE room use the alphas, however it's weird since I believe it's set by the indices normally - well, it's active now, so please let me know how it works. (Grab the new beta)

As for those r,g,b I thought it would help edit quicker, and the sizes are supposed to be relative (and smaller) to the triangle size. I'll have to see about it, not sure alpha is that simple, but I'll see as soon as I can about it.

EDIT: it seemed to be doing that anyways before? Using the value you typed in when you output original GE vertices?
 
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bmw
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, the RGB triangles help edit much faster so you're not always guessing which one to modify. Though I noticed something you'll need to fix, its a very simple fix - in the edit tri points (clipping) box, they're just labeled as point 1, point 2, and point 3 - those labels should be changed to blue red and green.

I may play around with alpha some time, but for the train, its not necessary.



Progress is slow but steady - I had no idea there were so many triangles in the outer room, and lighting this thing is turning out to be quite a project, especially trying to accurately blend in red light. Windows are tedious to accurately position, but its still much faster with the pop up box than hex editing them.

I'm only going to open up 6 out of the 10 windows, I'm afraid opening all 10 will cause blackouts and lag. But I am trying to open up at least one window in every room that has one.

You'll see I opened up one of the "bedroom" windows and clipped the bed.
--------------------------------------------------
EDIT - wait a sec, I just remembered. I have a screenshot that would suggest that alpha does indeed work in-game....

 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

You may be using an old version ? This is how it's supposed to look:


I think alpha works if you use export original vertices. I believe it's only hardcoded to FF when you export as a GE Room (not the original vertices only export).
 
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bmw
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

No, thats fine. I was referring to the modify CLIPPING tri box. That has just the points and not the red green blue labels.
 
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Oh, forgot about that, I just updated it in beta version, so you can grab it. Note I updated release version before this, to include the new dialog.
 
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Wreck
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Wowzers, this project is quickly growing!
The Train really looks like a brand new map with those modifications. Very Happy

What if you had shutters on each window? That way, the players would have to open them up to look outside. Setting the time that they stay open for to a shorter period, would cause most to close before others are even opened. All ten would probably never be opened at once, which should help reduce the chances of blackouts and lag. Could be something worth testing.
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bmw
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hmmm...I never thought of that idea before, its an interesting idea, except for one problem I'm having.....

I'm having to add extra visibility to the map through the visibility editor because for some reason, I'm having weird blackout problem when walking in the train and looking outside - when you stand in various spots and face just the right direction, the windows go black. However, when making the outside room visible all the time from the inside room, the blackouts disappear.

But I'm still leaving the portals in place because the extra visibility only works one way - I'm not making all inner rooms visible to the outside at one time, hence using portals to establish visibility for a player standing outside looking up and in. In other words, the portals are one-way portals with the other way being created by extra visibility.

So the ability to close off portals via shutters would only work one way and probably wouldn't accomplish much. That, and you wouldn't be able to open them up from standing outside.

Quote:
The Train really looks like a brand new map with those modifications.


What I like about it is that its still using all original stuff - that being, the original outdoors area was always there before, just it was not at all visible.


EDIT - New Discovery. While finishing off the coloring on the train car further down the tunnel, I found something....



The bg data is in place for another entry point connecting the outside to the inside. All I have to do is chop a hole in the floor where I drew the red box and viola! A second entry point into and out of the train. Its always nice to have more than one exit and entry into an area (in this case, it won't be as easy to get trapped outside the train)
 
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Dragonsbrethren
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 PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Oh wow, that's cool, which room is that in?
 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

That a portal right there? Now that's interesting...
 
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bmw
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

No, that's not a portal, I was just drawing over my screenshot to show where I would have to place the hole (and of course, a portal, but its not there by default).

HOWEVER, there IS something interesting about that location. The clipping is in place in the outer room all the way up that entry hole, its just not connected to the room above (you'll see the "ladder" part is also separated by about 1 z-value from the rest of it). The connections between the ground and that clipping are also non-existent, so the clipping kind of stands by itself, isolated and not connected to anything. But it is there. So clearly at one time, rare at least played around with the idea of a second entry point. What is more interesting is that it does seem to line up perfectly with the corner of the room above it, hence suggesting that it was something that was dropped fairly late in the development of the level.

Certainly raises questions about how that would have changed the mission, if you could have exited the train early.



And DB - maybe this will help describe where it is. I had to distort the carpet textures near the hole, but I've added it....

 
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SubDrag
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm, that is quite interesting. It would be pretty interesting to see how it changed the mission. My guess is that it would help in the end, since you could kill the guards outside before getting into the room with Ouromov. However, I just run like a maniac there so it might just be a waste?
 
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Dragonsbrethren
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

SubDrag wrote:
Hmm, that is quite interesting. It would be pretty interesting to see how it changed the mission. My guess is that it would help in the end, since you could kill the guards outside before getting into the room with Ouromov. However, I just run like a maniac there so it might just be a waste?

It's also possible you may not have gotten a key for that room and instead had to enter from outside. That would certainly have made that part play a bit differently, but I doubt it. Another idea is the exit would have moved farther back on higher difficulties, maybe they would've actually given you three minutes to find the exit and open it like the movie. It's probably just another thing they designed with no real use in mind though.
 
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radorn
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 PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe, at some point in development, the mission was intended to be more like in the movie and you enter the train after forcefully stopping it. It could have been an entry point but then they changed the course of the game and made Depot, the objective of destroying the brake controls and all that, rendering such an entrance unnecesary.
 
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